Global Warming :P

[The Metamorphosing Leon]

I'm sorry, your "facts" and your attacks against Al Gore indicate a lack of conviction on your part. I'm not even sure what he has to do with global warming, but I'm sure his being "fat" isn't part of it. It's hard to take a debate seriously when you have to come down to a junior high school level of discussion, so I figured I might as well entertain myself at your expense. 

It's not a junior high school level of discussion, I didn't even go to Junior High School.

How do my facts and my attacks on ol' fatboy show a lack of conviction? Why are you attacking me again? Counter my argument or at least explain what you mean.

I mean my facts are real and Al Gore is still fat.

[img width=322 height=409]http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2004/09/fat_gore.jpg[/img]

I have lots of conviction, I am tired of this shit. People spending their lives cataloging a perfectly normal global warmup, which will all too soon reverse, and then blaming themselves for it. I mean WTF? I don't know what else I can say to convince you. One thing that should prove my point, that this whole idea of human caused global warming is a farce and perfectly natural, is, when you hear a report saying that it's going to be the warmest year in a thousand years, remember that that means it was hotter a thousand years ago, when there were about as many cars as there were Al Gores.

No reason you should be able to entertain yourself at my expense if I can't amuse myself at Al Gore's expense.

[Tan]

Coming from someone who posts some of the coldest and/or silly statements I've ever read, it's very amusing you think I'm attacking you or that you even cared if I did. Your an entertainer and your posts reflect that. Who knows when your being serious and when your not?

Either way I apologize because I had no idea you had the monopoly on being a jackass. You once commented on how others attack your style of argument and not the subject at hand. Well maybe now you know why. Maybe next time i'll take you seriously instead of thinking of you as someone with a stick poking at the hornet's nest for a laugh.

"I've got my reputation as a jackass to protect, that's all that was."

[The Metamorphosing Leon]

[img width=322 height=409]http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2004/09/fat_gore.jpg[/img]

...

See you have, quite typically of people I get into arguments like this about, just moved this conversation completely away from global warming and turned it personal. This was not my intention, I wanted to have a civil debate on the subject without any flaming (with the exception of Al Gore) and now it's all about me and my jackassedness. Sure I post with entertainment in mind, I'm not trying to be boring, but I'm not just making up stuff for my own amusement. For a more "human at fault" look at global warming read Bill Bryson's wonderful *A Short History of Nearly Everything, it's got most of the data I've been talking about but still manages to make it sound like it's our fault.

I suppose it's human nature to blame either the gods or, since now we're all a bunch of Athiestic heathens, ourselves for changing times, that's all I can make of this fad. You do make good points about how we're fucking over the environment but still, the warming and cooling of the earth are beyond human hands short of us setting off several large nuclear devices (in which the sky would be blotted out by ash and we would all freeze to death, again illustrating my point that a little extra warmth is not a bad thing).

[Tan]

Here's what most people forget or don't realize. Yes the Earth is warming. And It would regardless of global warming. That's a part of being in the midst of an interglacial period. At some point in the next several thousand years, it'll begin to cool again in anticipation of the next glacial period. It's a repeating cycle like clockwork. You've said as much before but let's delve into that a bit.

The Earth needs that extra time between ice ages for these subtle changes in temperature to take place. Without that extra time there can't be time to adapt and side effects result. Side effects such as melting of existing glaciers, changes in weather patterns, increased drought and many others that even still have multiple indirect causalities most of them severe for animal species including humans. The rate of temperature increase resulting from both anthropogenic activities combined with that of the Earth's natural ones forces along our interglacial period at an alarming rate. Otherwise that natural progression would still be noted but without exhibiting the same signs and hazards that we are dealing with now at the same rate, giving us time to make these changes to protect ourselves.

You are right about the CO2, lately it's been found that Methane is 20-60 times more potent as a greenhouse gas than Carbon Dioxide. The amount of it in the atmosphere has tripled since the dawn of industrialization and has slowed with the measures taken against global warming in the last decade.

We didn't start global warming, we're like the wheelman when the crime is committed, a peripheral involvement that makes the crime more severe than it has to be and faster. We know all of these things about the environment that concern us will happen eventually. The point here is to slow it down as much as possible to allow us more time to change and adapt. Even if that was a small %, it could be the difference between major catastrophe in say 100-200 years as opposed to 500 when we may be in a better position to combat it's effects.

Since our attempts to change the Earth into a toolbox with everything we want and need has failed, we need to stop picking away at what's left in order to enjoy what little harmony we've still got and not take it for granted any longer.

We rubbed salt on an open wound, or pushed when we should have pulled worsening our own situation. Now we know it's terminal, so we have to make the Earth as comfortable as possible so we can enjoy our twilight of civilization while it prepares for a rebirth.

That enjoyment means taking whatever steps are necessary to prolong the time we have to adapt. Those include fighting pollution, extinction, deforestation, emissions etc. And it's as much to help the people cope with the changes with peace of mind and conscience as well as hopefully slow down the damage we're causing be it in a small or large way. That includes parents who want to ensure a better life for their children's future without passing them the bulk of today's problems and giving them wisdom of how to improve quality of life.

If we've even damaged the environment by 1% with our 6.6 billion people and millions or billion of domesticated lifestock, our 100's of millions of factories, vehicles, mining operations, forestry operations, fishing fleets destroying coral reefs etc. that's more than enough. It could be the difference between an extra couple of hundred years of good weather, or an extra 2 feet worth of shoreline, or less famine, delaying the inevitable glacial period and maintaining an economic, environmental, cultural and hereditary consistency for a while longer. When we continually find ways to deprive the world of it's resources while increasing our population and lifespan a price will be asked of us, and here it is.

While one Mosquito sting may not kill you, the more you get stung by something that seems so insignificant the more you increase your chances of catching something that will eventually kill you. Mother Earth has begun to start swatting us.

[Tynstar]

I hate to burst your bubble Leon but you started the personal attacks when you kept saying how fat Al Gore is. It make your whole argument look weaker IMO. You keep saying your "facts". Where did you get these "facts"? Post your sources.

You say scientist are paid lots of money to say there is global warming. Do you think the scientist that say there is no global warming are not paid? 

[Hydrobond]

I hate to burst your bubble Leon but you started the personal attacks when you kept saying how fat Al Gore is.

Agreed.

You say scientist are paid lots of money to say there is global warming. Do you think the scientist that say there is no global warming are not paid? 

It's not that scientists get paid for supporting global warming.  It's that there is a ton of research money available to anyone who says they are going to study global warming.  I don't feel like finding a source on that. 

[The Metamorphosing Leon]

I hate to burst your bubble Leon but you started the personal attacks when you kept saying how fat Al Gore is. It make your whole argument look weaker IMO. You keep saying your "facts". Where did you get these "facts"? Post your sources.

You say scientist are paid lots of money to say there is global warming. Do you think the scientist that say there is no global warming are not paid? 

Al Gore is not a part of this argument, unless he's got an account here, he's just someone I like to call fat while I debunk global warming.

My point about the personal attacks is that, rather than arguing about Global Warming, Tan started to make this argument about me. I'm not adverse to you attacking me, just do it while you argue with some sensibility. And it's all out there readily available, it's just hidden away to where you can't see it. Like I said, find me a real scientist, whose degree is not in building lasers or robots but in Meteorology, or Geology, to tell you human caused global warming is real.

There is so much freaking money in the study to find global warming it isn't funny.

The N.Y. Times published an article on it today. THE NEW YORK TIMES!!!!! The most liberal newspaper you can find PUBLISHED AN ARTICLE FULL OF SCIENTISTS AGAINST AN "Inconvenient Truth" GLOBAL WARMING.

Right Here

 Let's see how much more stuff I can find. Well, some of it, there's way too much and level 70 awaits in WoW.

ABCNews

BBC DocumentaryCheck it out.

Professor of Meteorology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology

About that stupid picture of the Polar bears who's population is purportedlythriving.

And I can go on and on. There's a History Channel show about how horrible the Mini Ice Age, which we apparently would like to revisit, was. Look at Hydros link about warming on mars, look at the Bill Bryson book I mentioned (it's a great read, a brief history of science, very recommended to those who are normally put to sleep by science).

The truth is out there, somewhere, you just have to find it. What Tan keeps talking about is how we've impacted the ecology of the earth, and yes we have fucked it up pretty bad but there's no real evidence that warming is our fault OR going to be much of a problem. As far as the screwed up environment, that's stuff we can heal if we can get the rest of the world to go along with us (I'd rather we just turned everything into robots, but eh). Our first order of business should be to cut the massive global warming research bill and use that money for something that will actually change something.

Sorry for the scatteredness, off to celebrate the sis's birthday.

[Tan]

For every source or scientist you find disputing global warming, there are 10 who support it. Al Gore's documentary is a poor example because like most politicians he exaggerates truths to the point where it borders on fiction. Whether or not you believe in global warming you can't ignore that the world does. Actions such as the Kyoto Protocol suggest how serious and unified the world is becoming to the problem.

You haven't debunked global warming, you've merely shown others how ignorant or unconvinced some of the world is to the problem at hand. Fortunately most of the major world governments take this problem seriously enough to do something about it. If you know anything about science you know that there are always several sides to every theory. Some are biased, some are paid to be, but the majority rules at the end of the day, in this case the majority doesn't agree with you.

Yay for majority. 

[The Metamorphosing Leon]

Yeah, but the minority consists of people who are much more qualified.

You should really, really, watch the BBC documentary Tan, from start to finish. I just found it today but it says all the things I've been saying, and pictures are much better than words. If you do so I'll watch Fat boy's Inconvenient documentary.

I don't deny that there are global patterns currently moving towards a slight warming, what I do deny is that this is something caused by humans and that we should waste so many resources, and be so scared by the consequences of, this perfectly natural and non threatening global event. To predict what consequences global warming will bring is inane. The weatherman can't even tell you what's going to happen tomorrow half the time. For example there were predictions of nine hurricanes this season and there were only five, some argue this was because of El Nino but you what? El Nino is another perfectly natural occurrence we can't ever predict. As my signature says, don't flatter yourself, mother nature is more powerful than you can imagine. The climate is always changing, the earth is always changing, since before humans, since before dinosaurs, even since before God was born

As free people I urge you not to be subjugated to this terrorist movement. It is an anti-capitalist movement. Africa wants to develop, environmental extremists are against it, in the meantime Africa is left to rot in a half built civilization.

It is all sensationalist drivel that has been perpetuated by, and I can think of no better word, these terrorists, and politicians, who use it for their own good. It has become ingrained in your minds that this is your fault and that we can change it if we throw enough money at it. Both sides of the aisle use it as a platform and both sides of the aisle are full of corrupt bastards who need to be exterminated. You see it everyday; Ted Kennedy, our illustrious politician here in the states, freaking killed a girl and got away with it. Our last president was an adulterer and a perjurer.

It's time to rise up, rise up and BRING IT ALL DOWN!!!!!!! WHO'S WITH ME!!!!!!!!!!!! CHARGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!























Yeah, well, at least stop worrying about global warming.

[Tan]

You have to look at the bigger picture here, this isn't just about the Earth warming up, that's actually only a small part of this. Atmospheric changes affect weather patterns, crop growth, drought, disease, UV index and many others. All caused by use of substances like Freon and other haloalkanes long since banned after their negative effects had been discovered. Combine that with carbon monoxide emissions, increased methane from a larger population and other factors which create their own problems aside from global warming itself.

BTW as i said in my previous post, Al Gore's documentary isn't a reasonable source of information. I've never watched it, nor would I. It overdramatizes the issue with doomsayer prophecies and that opinion comes from both sides of the debate. This problem is one with a cumulative effect, it isn't going to happen in 10 years, we are talking hundreds, but when it does it becomes irreversable.

We're talking evidence taken from readings of ancient ice, atmospher, ozone, rock formations, air quality, underwater ecosystem devastation and mapping out a series of patterns for the last 100,000 years or so. What we are doing is accelerating a 1000 year gradual change into a half a century one.

Televised journalisn always swings for the extremes, either over glorify the problem or try to completely discredit it. If you want real evidence you'll have to read it. Read it from notable scientists who are considered experts in their field. Read graphs, charts, statistics taken from years of research in the field. read dozens of reports, compare them to dozens of others. When you do you find things like this:

"The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) is one of the largest bodies of international scientists ever assembled to study a scientific issue, comprised of more than 2,000 scientists from 100 countries. The IPCC has concluded that most of the warming observed during the past 50 years is attributable to human activities. Its findings have been publicly endorsed by the national academies of science of all G-8 countries, as well as those of China, India and Brazil."

Here's the link:

http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Climate_Change/Science/

2000 of the world's leading scientists from all corners of the globe, take a moment and consider what it must have taken to not only bring them all together but for them to agree. We who don't have the scientific background they do probably have no idea how bad it must be. That's only 1 example of global co-operation on this issue that has yielded results but i thought it fit well into my post. 

[The Metamorphosing Leon]

About the IPCC, watch the first few minutes of the BBC Documentary. It's all stuff I've heard, and could try to explain, but it's all right in the first five minutes of the doc.

[Tan]

Re-read my posts again. Take in the overall picture, climate change is only a part of it as I've stated before. That BBC documentary is about as partisan as Fahrenheit 911. I expected as much when I read the title "The Great Global Warming Swindle" lol. Of course it'll look like a great source, it's Al Gore's documentary from the opposite side of the coin. Both as biased and unreliable as any other film made to "interpret" fact like "300". Good movie but way off base whenever it's convienient to do so for dramatic effect.

That and the CO2 issue is a moot point, they've found a bigger source of atmospheric issues even worse than that, even though that doc sure didn't focus on it. I've even said as much in my previous posts as well. I've also stated how biased the media can be for sake of ratings and viewership, the real info is found through reading and research of hard fact approved by the majority.

If you want to defend your position on a more substantial level, find credible evidence that acid rain, ozone depletion, smog and many others don't exist, or have existed before modern times. These are all problems you can actually go outside and experience right now, all caused by humans, all unnatural. And if you do believe they exist (how could you not ) could belief that 6.6 billion people could make global changes be so hard to swallow?

Regardless unless other people jump in and explore this debate from both sides, nothing good will come from this thread, it'll just be back and forth repeating ourselves over and over again. You've got your side and I've got mine. I've spent many hours reading about this topic for information for this thread. Although fun at first I don't see it moving forward anymore. Maybe the next topic of debate will garner a bit more interest from others. Without other people it's an argument, with them it's a debate.


Til next time
Keith

[The Metamorphosing Leon]

True, we need more input. Whenever I start topics like this I only seem to get one person to argue at a time damn it...except for when I was pro-Sony.

Ah well, I've read your posts. I could pick through them - smog, for example, slows global warming by blocking solar rays. Ozone depletion is stupid, we started noticing it in the 80s when...we first started noticing it. We hadn't been looking for it before then, so how are we to know that it wasn't there? In anycase, even if total ozone depletion occurred all that would be necessary is sunblock, we may have to start living underground, but it wouldn't destroy the world. But these things are small fries when compared to the entire global climate, perhaps one day we will be able to affect the massiveness of the global climate, like I said we could with a few dozen nukes, but at the moment it's nothing to be worried about.

Hell, I'm not worried about it, it's much more fun to not worry about it. Rspecially when the rest of the masses are in a tizzy about it. Makes one feel l33t, and the fact that I'm right makes it all the more sweet. I just wish my tax dollars were going elsewhere, like Iraq.

OK I'll stop, there's enough info on the board, it's over unless someone else wants to join in on this groovy partay.

[Hydrobond]

Surprised no one has posted this yet. 

[img width=700 height=540]http://www.venganza.org/images/spreadword/pchart1.jpg[/img]

[Seamar]

I like how 45000 is in between 35000 and 20000. Sort of disrupts the trend.