RF Generation Collectorcast Episode 45

[Duke.Togo]

As RWX approaches and Bil prepares, Crabby and Duke take time to discuss a few topics including PlayStation VR, the art of CRT repair, and the end of a collecting journey.

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Show Notes
Links
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Music: Castlevania: The Adventure (Nintendo GameBoy)
Topic - 13:56
Outro - 2:16:21

[Addicted]

@Crabby: Congrats on the new house!

PSVR & PSPRO:

There was another item regarding PS VR and HDR that came to light recently:

Q: Does the Processor Unit support 4K and HDR pass through?
The PS VR Processor Unit (PU) supports video pass through so that you can enjoy regular non-VR content on your TV when you have the PS4 connected to the TV via the PU and the PU is connected to power via the AC adapter and the PS VR headset is not in use. This pass through support works for regular 1080p signals and also supports 2160p (UHD or ‘4K’) content in YUV 420 color format at up to 60 Hz from a PlayStation Pro.
However, HDR signals are not supported for pass through by the PU. This applies to both 1080p and 2160p HDR. If you have a HDR capable TV and want to view PS4 content in HDR, it is necessary to cable the PS4 directly to the TV.

I'm excited for 4K technology as I've heard reports that 240P games upscaled to 720P via the framemeister and then upscaled to 2160P look amazing as they are all integer scales.

Take a look at the youtube channel My Life in Gaming for some good information on upscaling as well as Retro RGB:

https://www.youtube.com/user/mylifeingaming
http://www.retrorgb.com/

I think that that in 20-30 years it is going to be hobbyist who keep their CRTs and know someone or work on it themselves. I look to what the hobbyist market has accomplished with pinball as an example for what is to come for retro games.

Regarding the AVS:

I've heard rumors that RetroUSB is experimenting with light gun technology similar to how the WII remote works as a Zapper alternative for the AVS.

Around the 50 minute mark on this video:



As for me I'm holding on to two CRTs and using two LCDs. I would love to add more but I'm running out of space.

@Duke: The company you're thinking of is Turbo Technologies. "The other major publisher for the US TurboGrafx-16 and TurboGrafx-CD consoles. NEC Home Electronics passed over publishing duties to TTI in 1991, and TTI would publish the majority of TurboGrafx-16/CD games until the console's demise in 1994."

http://www.giantbomb.com/...chnologies-inc/3010-1726/

The game Crabby is thinking of is Camp California. http://www.giantbomb.com/...mp-california/3030-37853/

"Camp California is a side-scrolling platformer developed by ICOM Simulations for the TurboGrafx-CD. It is exclusive to that platform. The player, who begins the game as Byron the surfing bear, must rescue their three friends (who all become playable characters themselves with different skillsets) and stop a crew of rats from destroying their beach and preventing a big rock n' roll concert.

The game is in some way related to Yo' Bro, the top-down skateboarding action game for the TurboGrafx-16, which also featured the character of "Lil Bro" (revealed to be Byron's younger brother) as well as licensed Beach Boys music. Due to the CD format, Camp California plays CD-quality versions of the same Beach Boys tracks rather than Yo' Bro's MIDI approximations."

The prices for some Dreamcast homebrew games are crazy. Try finding a cheap copy of Sturmwind.

Thanks for another episode!

[Schlibby]

Good listen. Couple of comments:

If you want to see how many consoles and games sales per week/year/lifetime just use:
http://www.vgchartz.com
So funny the entirety of Japan buy 47 Xbox Ones and a single Xbox 360 in a week.

Secondly, the HDR thing. I don't have a HDR comparable display myself. But from what I've heard Ultra HD is made up of 2 components. 4K = the number of pixels. HDR is the range of colours. So if you buy an Uktra HD Tv it will have both of these things. Obviously ultra HD blurays have both too

Now the 4K bit isn't actually that exciting. Cus unless you have a giant TV or are really close you probably won't notice the difference. But the range of colours can be noticed on any size TV. Ever watched a DVD and had the blacks go all blocky and horrible. That's what the HDR addresses

[Duke.Togo]

@Addicted: That seems a really strange oversight on the HDR thing. PSVR seems like such an odd, hodge podge project. I'll be curious to see how it does.

I've heard rumblings about the light gun stuff. It's not a bid deal for me, but I can see why it would be very important if you are selling an HDMI console.

I do remember TTI. They ran a lot of ads in gaming magazines for a while after the NEC dropped support. If only I had paid more attention back then.

@Schlibby: The 4K bit is what gets me. It's getting to the point that the difference when viewed from normal distances is negligible. I know TV manufacturers want me to upgrade, but I don't see any compelling reasons to get rid of my nice 1080p display. I'd rather the console manufacturers focus on getting all games to 1080p 60fps.

[Addicted]

@Duke: If you were like the rest of us you took one look at the Johnny Turbo ad campaign, said WTF and moved on.

[img width=500 height=503]http://s3.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/1/5/0/9150.jpg[/img]

[nupoile]

My ears were full of Duke today. Listened to this and that NARC podcast back to back.



The 4K thing. Since most of my RFG time = too exhausted to do anything else time, we'll see if I can make this coherent,  haha.

I won't argue that the Playstation with 4k but without the UHD drive is a weird product. That is weird. This is all really a chicken and egg problem, you need a new tv to see the new stuff, you need a new player/source to send it to the tv, you need new media to send through these devices. Since committing resources for early adoption is a financially loosing situation, manufactures and consumers both are slow to pick it up.

Right now though, if you are buying a new tv, over a certain size, you'll almost certainly be buying a 4k tv. All the major tv manufactures only ship screens in 4k when you get so big on their newest models (or will on their 2017 models). If you are buying a 50" + tv that isn't 4k today, it's pretty likely a very budget screen and/or old stock. Plenty of smaller tvs are also 4k. So there isn't really going to be a choice of 1080p if you are buying a new tv, at least very soon it'll be that way. While you might be happy with your 1080p tv and not wanting to upgrade right now, at a certain point you'll look like those people Crabby was talking about that still only have CRTs in their houses.

High Dynamic Range is much more in a state of flux. I think it will be sorted out in the next few months but it isn't on all tvs right now. The standard isn't locked down either.

OLED tvs are also cheap enough for normal people now. This will be a choice as there are trade offs for oled vs lcd. While I haven't seen an oled in ideal situations, what I have seen (big box store) was pretty awesome. Black is waaaay blacker on oled. If tvs were emo, they would be oled. Space movies would look fantastic.

What it boils down to is that 2016 is a weird time to buy into 4k HDR and UHD.

So I think with Sony putting out this odd "4k" playstation they are just falling inline with what people will expect in a few months. There will be downloadable games that will play in 4k and there will be pass through media that the machine can stream. Companies don't want to have to deal with tons of different product lines for the most part. At a certain point it's just easier to make this new box have some 4k-ness to it rather than not.

I'm excited for 4k/UHD and high dynamic range. I think they are a big step. Not sure why people don't think 4k is a big deal, I am 30" from my pc monitor right now and can see the pixels, I can see the pixels on my tablet (which is an even higher density) when I'm holding it, I can see pixels on my 1080p tv from across the room. 4k will make that less of an issue.


Oh, and that Duke guy is pretty quick, he was really entertaining on the narc podcast.

[bombatomba]

No more tubes?  End of an era.  I wonder how many CC listeners started wondering what their local thrifts have as far as CRTs are concerned.  It also got me thinking about the hour count.  I don't think I ever heard about hour counts on televisions until I bought an LCD in 2007.  I even asked my dad how long a typical CRT tele lasts.  His answer?

"If you buy a good set and don't cheap out? Twenty years."

[shaggy]

Wait?  There is a chat app?

[Ikariniku]

I listened to the newest episode and I had a few thoughts and comments.  Great show, Duke and Crabby!

1. Chris at OTC is probably thrilled to get a big score of N64s.  Around me, N64s are hot sellers, selling nearly 1 to 1 with NES consoles.  If Chris even had any of Crabby's N64s left by the Christmas rush, I would be shocked.

2. I plan on getting a new TV this year, and even with 4k panels filling stores while 1080 panels are slowly getting discontinued, I see no reason to get a 4k TV.  What is the value for me?  What 4k content am I going to consume?  I don't have a 4k PC gaming rig.  I don't have 4k blu-rays or 4k capable gaming devices.  I know streaming giants like Netflix have limited 4k streaming options, but sites like GiantBomb are just now getting to 1080/60 streaming content.  And even if 4k streaming were plentiful, my internet is not capable of streaming it, anyway.

I have no doubt I'll end up with a 4k HDR TV someday, but it seems like a poor investment now.  I took this same course with HDTVs.  The standards had to be set and the content plentiful for me to invest.  Honestly, HDR seems like a more valuable technology than 4k resolution, but once again the standard is in flux.  CheapyD of CAG upgraded his 4k panel to HDR, but says that the effect is not "true" HDR.  Why am I buying a 4k HDR panel now when I will just have to buy another one when the standards and content are actually set? 

People can snicker at my "outdated" 1080 panels if they want.  The extra cash in my pocket from not being a heedless early adopter will protect my feelings.

3. PSVR will probably be my entry into VR gaming.  I know there are some early tracking hiccups and technical hitches, but I don't plan on buying it right now, so I can wait until they're ironed out.  My plan is to get a PSVR headset when I can get a bundle of system (any PS4-platform system will do), headset, controllers, and camera for $500-600.  I realize that is a very generous bundle, but it's only a matter of time before one pops up, and I certainly can wait.

VR seems interesting, but I'm unwilling to invest super heavily into something I am sure I will get limited use out of.  And I'm not saying I would abandon VR.  By its very nature, it seems like something you use for limited play sessions.

4. I am a CRT retro game "purist".  While I've bought systems like the Retron5, the Retro Freak, and the AVS to "futureproof" my retro game playing, I definitely suffer from the "emulator effect" Duke and Crabby mentioned.  The palettes used and sharpness of the pixels make the games look "wrong" to me.  It was not something I would have predicted before it happened.  I thought I would love the HD images coming from these new clones, but I have to turn on the faux scanlines and make them really dark for the games to look acceptable. 

Since that horrifying discovery, I have picked up 3 PVMs and a half dozen or so standard CRT TVs.  And I love gaming on the things.  High quality CRT TVs provide a wonderful gaming experience for these old systems, even with just a tiny screen and a composite connection.  A properly RGB system hooked up through a PVM is 1000x preferable to me than HDMI.

That being said, I have given a thought to the future.  I've never had a CRT TV just conk out and stop working.  The TV I used to play my N64 on Christmas morning '96 still works.  While I understand that CRTs have a lifespan measured in hours, they have always seemed bulletproof to me.

However, I do want to be ready if the worst happens.  Part of the reason I have so many PVMs is to have extras if/when they start going kaput.  My basic plan was to just wage a war of attrition, to have as many CRTs as necessary to last out the remaining decades of my life.  I was pretty satisfied with that plan.

Then I heard that CRTs were no longer being manufactured.  Scott on the Retro Gaming RoundUp podcast said that this development had sent arcade collectors into a tizzy.  There had been an assumption, apparently, that CRT production would continue to service parts of the world where the economy was too depressed to upgrade to LCD TVs, but LCD panels got so cheap so fast that CRT production ended far earlier than anyone expected.

This news made me anxious about my CRT future.  I can't store many more CRTs, if any more, so I want to keep my current cache operational.  Sadly, I have no technical skills.  I plan to learn to solder, and maybe I can pick up the skills to do more work on CRTs.  I would be much less hopeful about this endeavor except for the fact that I randomly joined a facebook group called The CRT Collective while looking for PVMs.  As Crabby and Duke surmised, the guys who are most active in this group are retro gamers and electronics collectors that have that knowledge base on how to repair and adjust these classic pieces of electronics.  I can only hope this information gets formally catalogued and archived so that we can have it in the future.

While the future of CRTs is uncertain, I have to admit I'm not feeling the pinch in my corner of the USA.  Even with people recycling CRTs at a depressing rate and stacks of old monitors moldering behind hospitals and schools, I could go out an buy a CRT at a thrift shop right now if I wanted to.  CRTs are bought and sold routinely at Goodwills near me.  There is still a brisk business in tubes near me.  Thus, I'm always on the look out for new, high quality specimens to add to my collection, all while hoping the good times don't end any time soon.

Also, I've seen several TV repair places in my area.  One is a store front, another is in a flea market, and the last is a sign in someone;s front yard that's been there as long as I can remember.  After hearing Crabby and Duke talk about it, I feel like maybe I should check these places out.  None of my TVs are so blown out that I would want to risk dropping them off to these places for a tune up, but maybe I can give a call and see if these places still offer CRT service.

5. Congrats to Duke on the Panic Restaurant.  I picked up the Famicom release from Senseiman before he closed up shop, and I find it to be an excellent little game.  While it was Duke that helped me focus my collecting with the idea of self-designated sets and goals, his newest acquisition makes me wish I could attain the one Nintender Tape that has eluded me and entertain thoughts of spending way too much money.  Thanks, Duke  .

[shaggy]

I want a CRT TV but for only one reason, retro gaming.   can't play light gun games or use the SMS 3-D glasses without them.  Has anyone ever used the 3-D glasses?  For the time they came out, they actually were very well.  Still have mine but , sadly, I cannot use them as I don't have a CRT.   End of an era?  Yes, I think it is, sadly.

The PSVR has my interest really piqued.  I want to try it before buying it.  Not sure if I want to pay $500 for the system and accessories, though.  I think I'll wait until Christmas next year to see if their is a price drop.

I won't be getting a 4k TV until it is standard.  I'd rather get a 3-D TV before this.  You won't see much, if any, of a difference between 1080p and 4k unless you are right in front of the TV which means this thing is pretty much useless as an upgrade.  Like Ikariniku said, I'd rather have HDR than 4k.

Addicted beat me to the punch with the NEC/TTI Turbo discussion.  I do remember the Johnny Turbo ads when flipping through magazines when I was a kid.  Maybe you should post some in the Remember When thread in Idle Chatter, Addicted.

[shaggy]

No Stadium Events, Duke.  Doesn't count as a licensed set.

[Duke.Togo]

Trying to play catch up here after being in CT for a week.

@Addicted: Johnny Turbo... yup, that's a forgettable mess.

@nupoile: I play games from my couch around 7 feet from my TV. I can't make out all the details with my eyeballs at 1080p from that distance, so I can't imagine that 4k will do that much for me. If you sit close to a monitor to play, that makes a lot more sense. Thanks for compliment on NARC. Those guys are fun.

@bomba: It makes me hope that with some preventative maintenance I can keep my CRTs running for a long time. Crossing my fingers.

@shaggy: Not an RFG chat app. The staff use Slack to chat.

The SegaScope 3-D is awesome. I wish it had got more use. I need to get the Famicom headset at some point.

@Ikariniku: I'm with you on waiting for a 4K upgrade. I'll let the dust settle.

I finally got a chance to try VR with Oculus recently. I'll discuss my thoughts on the next show.

Glad to hear from another CRT enthusiast. I've had my HD CRT die on me once several years back, and had to avail myself of a local TV repair place. It ended up just being a board problem, but the cost wasn't cheap, due mostly to them picking up and dropping off the insanely heavy thing. You may want to at least learn some simple repair skills like capacitor replacement. Even not using CRTs to avoid putting hours on the tubes, those capacitors will still need replaced.

What's the elusive Nintender tape that you haven't found?

[Ikariniku]

@Ikariniku: I'm with you on waiting for a 4K upgrade. I'll let the dust settle.

I finally got a chance to try VR with Oculus recently. I'll discuss my thoughts on the next show.

Glad to hear from another CRT enthusiast. I've had my HD CRT die on me once several years back, and had to avail myself of a local TV repair place. It ended up just being a board problem, but the cost wasn't cheap, due mostly to them picking up and dropping off the insanely heavy thing. You may want to at least learn some simple repair skills like capacitor replacement. Even not using CRTs to avoid putting hours on the tubes, those capacitors will still need replaced.

What's the elusive Nintender tape that you haven't found?

It was a really great episode, Duke.  I listened to it twice to gather my thoughts.

When the content is there and the standards are set, I'll have a 4k TV.  Simple as that.

I have never tried true VR.  Some of the stuff looks really fun, but I'll have a Nintendo Switch (an NS, if you will) before a VR helmet.  

If my memories of my own life are correct, it was actually listening to the Collectorcast that clued me in to pick up PVMs.  While I wasn't lucky enough to get any for free, I picked several up for reasonable prices before they really started drying up in my area.  I also have an insanely heavy HD CRT, but the geometry is blown and the lag is terrible for retro games.  I do want to learn to solder and do some cap kits on the consoles and monitors in my collection (my Turbo Twin desperately needs new caps).  It seems easy enough, but as Crabby said, before you dive in, it seems really intimidating.

EDIT: I may have just bought some TV repair books from ebay.

Sigh, it's the big one, Little Samson.  And it's mostly because I almost had it for $20 and just forgot to bid on ebay (or pick it up any time before it was a multi-hundred dollar game).  I may have taken some steps to rectify this situation, though...

[Duke.Togo]

From my short experience, VR is interesting, but too early to be a mainstream product. I'll be more interested after a few years when the quality comes up and the price comes down. I have serious reservations about motion sickness though.

If you want to learn some soldering, just find some dead electronics or things that are going to get trashed anyway. Finding things like this are easy, and you can get a lot of practice in without the stress.

I'll be interested in what you think of the TV repair books. If you find a really good one, let me know.

You're in the same rough spot as singlebanana. Samson is getting crazier by the year. I hope you guys can both pull it off.

[Ikariniku]

I'll be interested in what you think of the TV repair books. If you find a really good one, let me know.

You're in the same rough spot as singlebanana. Samson is getting crazier by the year. I hope you guys can both pull it off.

I will, but, frankly, I should have just checked my local library.  The books I bought are all ex-library, so these are end user-aimed guides, not technical manuals.  One even touts itself as a no jargon, plain English guide that will save people money on TV repair.  There's actually a lot of info out there on CRT repair, as it used to be assumed that electronics would be user serviceable.

I should clarify that I am not in the same race as 'Banana.  Little Samson is only the last NES game on my personal bucket list.  I am not nearing a full licensed set of any definition.  If I had a Stadium Events, I would sell it!