RF Generation Collectorcast Episode 10

[techwizard]

i fully understand it for any game made by a company or publisher that doesn't exist anymore. anything else though, no matter how old, has the potential to be put into compilation packs or HD remakes, and the copyright owners are still operating and have the right to earn money off past properties in any way they see fit. for that reason i don't like pirated games no matter how old, and i would only draw the line of acceptability at the point where the one and only way of playing a game legitimately is to shell out thousands of dollars just because of market value. at that point it's completely understandable.

I think most of us feel very similar to that even though its a completely arbitrary "magic" line. How much is too much for typical market value? $100? $500? $2000? It doesn't really matter because at $2 or $10,000 the price shouldn't affect the morality of the issue. We just bend the rules to accommodate what we think it fair, and that is going to be slightly different for everyone.

my thinking on that though is that those prices are all subjected to the used game market, what people are willing to pay, etc. prices are driven up when people really want to get something, and as interest and willingness to pay high prices drops off, the prices go down. if the price is outrageously high because of what a few high paying buyers pushed it to, then i think it's a little different.

compare it to someone talking about the price of a game being sold at retail, and claiming that "$60 is too much for one game! i'm going to show them what i think about that by not paying for it!"

basically what i mean is when it's used, if people don't want to pay a price, the price adapts (eventually). buying new, when people don't want to pay it, they either don't get the game or they resort to piracy.

therefore in the case of used games, i think price does affect the morality of the issue, because maybe the morality of the original people that pushed it up that high should be in question. new games have somehow managed to keep roughly the same pricing even with inflation, so there's not too much to say against the price point, considering technically it's been costing us less the higher inflation goes up. like i said though it still hinges on whether or not the publisher and developer are still operating. if there is a way overpriced used game, maybe wait and eventually you might get a cheap re-release from the publisher someday. many times piracy is just the laziness of impatience.

[Fleach]

many times piracy is just the laziness of impatience.

Well put, my friend. You're right.

My thoughts of piracy are that even though emulators got me into retro collecting, I can't - and won't - go that route anymore. On a purely superficial level I couldn't get comfortable with the controls. The image resolution wasn't great either. I never took the publisher or developer into consideration, but I realized that in the end it's not fair to people who worked hard to create and release this game. Someone who slaved away designing the levels or programming the game gets snubbed by piracy. Money aside, the people who brought the game to fruition are robbed of the due credit.

That's why I decided to start searching for the games locally and actually play the real thing. It's simply more satisfying to own a physical copy of the game. It allows you to reflect on the hunt and excitement of finding the game when you hold it in your hands. There's nothing better.

In terms of reproductions I'll buy and play them if that's the only way I can access the game. I'd consider myself a fan of localizations. I figure that if the people put time and effort into the project they should receive adequate recognition and compensation for their work.

The "labour of love" comment made in the podcast was a great description of the localization and home brew scene.

[Duke.Togo]

So there has been a healthy discussion on "back-ups" and piracy, but not much mention of pirate originals and flash carts. Anyone have any thoughts to share?

[techwizard]

i'm only just listening to ep 10 now, so i might add more once i hear what they have to say . i agree too about it being more than just the money, it's about giving credit where it's due as well. the physical copy arguement is more of a collector's point of view...it would probably fall on deaf ears for the majority of gamers.

@duke what do you mean by pirate originals and flash carts? i haven't gotten to the main topic in the podcast yet...do you mean homebrews?

[Quackula]

I'm planning to get a powerpak sometime, but that's really only because of my own NES homebrew development dabbling. Being able to test your code on real hardware is pretty important, especially if you're planning on putting it on a real cart.

Seems like the dividing line between pirate originals (and I mean original originals, not original games based on Mortal Kombat or Mario or something.) and unlicensed carts is a tad arbitrary to me. You guys mentioned something about how unlicensed carts count because they were released during the life of the system, but what about something like, say, Sunday Funday? It was released after the last licensed NES cart. Does that make it a pirate cart all the sudden? On the flipside I don't even really know of any actual pirate originals so maybe it's a pointless debate.

I think it was Duke who said he was okay with stuff like those NES clones and 'hardware emulation' since you use real carts, but not with emulating on a computer. Some emulators for certain disc based systems (Ps1 for example) can actually run games off of their retail disc. As in you put the retail disc in the CD/DVD drive and it just reads the data off that and runs it on your computer. Where does that fall for you? What about using SNES or Genesis emulators along with a retrode? With these methods you wouldn't be downloading anything besides the emulator. You'd be playing with your actual carts and discs.

[Shadow Kisuragi]

I need to get a retrode. That's just too cool.

[Quackula]

I need to get a retrode. That's just too cool.

Seriously! I thought about getting one myself until I realized I'd probably never actually use it.

Also, me and Crabby are on the exact same page regarding arcade stuff. I want more cabs!

Also also, I personally wouldn't feel comfortable getting a repro of a fan translation unless I already owned a copy of the japanese (or whatever) original.

[Shadow Kisuragi]

I need to get a retrode. That's just too cool.

Seriously! I thought about getting one myself until I realized I'd probably never actually use it.

I want to get back into doing speedruns, and emulator is much easier to iterate runs on than the actual hardware. However, I'm against pure digital emulation, and tired of answering questions about the legality of emulation when I own the original software/hardware.

[Izret101]

"You don't like Seaman?"
*I snicker like a child*

[Duke.Togo]

@techwizard: A pirate original is just a modern unlicensed title. A flash cart is a device that allows you to play ROMs on real hardware.

@Quackula: Not sure if you want to hold off, but RetroZone is going to be releasing an updated Power Pak soon.

Traditionally in NES circles, unlicensed means a game that was created without a proper license from Nintendo to run on the NES within the lifespan of the system itself. Sunday Funday is typically considered the last unlicensed cart.

An example of a pirate original would be something like Aladdin II, which goes by several different names, but is a simple flying carpet shooter.

In theory I have no problem with playing games on a PC with a Retrode, but personally I wouldn't do it. Emulation on a PC of disc based games? Again, I don't have any issues with it, but it's not my thing.

[InvadErGII]

I'm really enjoying this one, and loved the shoutout.

Not even I have figured out how to pronounce the end of my username - 'ErGII' was the result of me spending a half hour trying to spell my real name in Dragon Warrior using the Power Glove. That was as close as I got, and it stuck as an online handle. I rarely ever have to say it out loud, so...ER-gee works, I guess.

[NES_Rules]

Crap, I just remembered I forgot to put the new episode on my iPod before going to work today. I guess I'll have to wait another day...

[Quackula]

Man at the rate this is going you guys are going to have a 12 hour podcast by the time August rolls around.

[nupoile]

Listened to the show today, good show.

I think I could have a pretty good conversation on the emulation thing. I kept wishing I was there to jump in.

Emulators are not illegal or bad by themselves. Saying they are is like saying cars are bad because you can speed in them. Sure, people speed, and maybe everyone does at one point or another, but that doesn't make cars bad, or wrong, or illegal.

Emulators can be used for all sorts of fun and good things. As far as I can tell, all of the original Vectrex games are perfectly legal and good to go on emulation. Many people who make homebrews only release for play on emulators. And even the homebrewers who make games available on carts (or disc or whatever) often let you download the rom's for free. If you want to make a game, emulators are a lifesaver. What would the homebrew scene be like if there were no emulators for the programers to test on?



I kinda look at the people on RFG and the people who listen to the podcast, (me included of course) generally speaking, to sort of belong in the historian/curator club. And I look at pretty much all of what you talked about in the show to be part of the video game history. So, one way or another, some of us need to take care of all forms of gaming.

Not everyone needs to take care of backups or emulation, not everyone even needs to like it, but it is part of the history of gaming. You could look at it like a more traditional historian, some of them are big into 19th century Europe, others don't care a lick about that and are into the peoples of Asia.

It's kinda important to make a division on what you aren't into because it is illegal (however big or small, or at one time or another) and not liking it because, it just "isn't your thing."


Oh, and I kept wondering what the conversation in the show would have been like had you guys been big into PC gaming. Somehow I think that would change some of your opinions about copies and whatnot. I try and buy many copies of games good for lan parties. I can pretty easily see someone (like me) having several old PC's, say 3, having friends come over, want to play something like Mech Warrior on a lan and me only having 2 copies of Mech Warrior. Do I create an iso so the third person can play? In my house, on my computers, with a game I already own?

(That specific thing has never happened here, but you get my point)


All that being said, I'm not really into emulation, I don't really mind it but it's not really for me.

[NES_Rules]

Finally got around to listening today. I was listening for a few hours and you guys were wrapping up, and I thought "oh crap, another episode is coming to an end" but then I realized it was still on the small scores segment, and I still had plenty to listen to.
Also, I feel really special being the only other person besides those who recorded it to have heard the "pilot" episode. Its totally worth the $30+ donation.