Genre/Subgenre Restructuring

[Crabmaster2000]

"Strategy" is to me: Age of Empires, Warcraft, ... (Real-Time Strategy) or Civilization, Heroes of Might & Magic (Turn-based strategy).

Then there's stuff like Final Fantasy Tactics, which some might list under Strategy. Although to me, those are RPG -> Tactical RPG.

Thank you, Sirgin.  I would support the subgenre Tactical being under the genre RPG, seeing is that while these types of games (Disgaea, FF Tactics) are tactical by nature (i.e., short-term, versus the long-term goals that accompany a strategy game) they almost always have a strong RPG feel to them, which pretty much all strategy games lack.  Makes me wonder if Tactical should be under RPG, Strategy, or both...

I third this idea.

[Izret101]

I did have questions marks next to each one where it was and even asked about it in the original list.
Which has not been questioned or commented on up until now even though 2/3 people who brought it up had the ability to do so long before :-P

[Crabmaster2000]

I did have questions marks next to each one where it was and even asked about it in the original list.
Which has not been questioned or commented on up until now even though 2/3 people who brought it up had the ability to do so long before :-P

Better late than never

[techwizard]

"Strategy" is to me: Age of Empires, Warcraft, ... (Real-Time Strategy) or Civilization, Heroes of Might & Magic (Turn-based strategy).

Then there's stuff like Final Fantasy Tactics, which some might list under Strategy. Although to me, those are RPG -> Tactical RPG.

Thank you, Sirgin.  I would support the subgenre Tactical being under the genre RPG, seeing is that while these types of games (Disgaea, FF Tactics) are tactical by nature (i.e., short-term, versus the long-term goals that accompany a strategy game) they almost always have a strong RPG feel to them, which pretty much all strategy games lack.  Makes me wonder if Tactical should be under RPG, Strategy, or both...

tactics and strategies are different things. they are short term and long term planning respectively. i agree with putting tactical games under RPG, because the only ones i know of that are actually tactical are essentially RPGs as well.

[CoinCollector]

Hi,
One thing that is coming to my mind is that Tycoon subgenre is more Strategy than Simulation. The same with all the Manager games where you really don't play football/soccer or ride bike like Football Manager or Championship Manager, Cycling Manager etc.

I disagree.

To me, simulation games are stuff like the Tycoon games, The Sims, "virtual pet" games, sports manager simulation games or any games that involve simulating something else (games that simulate board games could fit this too, although there might be a seperate genre for that).

"Strategy" is to me: Age of Empires, Warcraft, ... (Real-Time Strategy) or Civilization, Heroes of Might & Magic (Turn-based strategy).

oyang's got a good point.  I believe a simulator should be more towards something like Railworks or Microsoft Flight Simulator - first and foremost they strive to simulate the real life experience.  The tycoon-style games teeter on the edge, I'd say more towards strategy usually.  Zoo Tycoon: it's kinda simulating being a tycoon, but is it really mimicking reality all that much?  If you focus on the core gameplay, it's more about strategically building up your zoo for success.  Now, you could say driving a train in Railworks requires strategy - true, but only because it's simulating a real train.  This is a very fine line, draped with opinions... but I say tycoon games tend to be about strategically building up something, rather than simulating the experience of being a tycoon.

Just imagine the designers at Blue Fang, giving birth to Zoo Tycoon - did they set out primarily to accurately recreate a zoo and all of its inner-workings, or to build a game about a zoo, consisting of bunches of components you the player can strategically ( ) manipulate to meet a goal?

Just throwing that out there.  It's tough, and probably has to be decided on a game-by-game basis.  It might be easy to label something like Zoo Tycoon a simulator since there are many similarities to what a real tycoon does... but then would Warcraft be an orc-general-simulator?

[Shadow Kisuragi]

GENRE/SUBGENRE for every title in the database will be reset, and it will be up to EVERYONE on the site to fill them back in.

Will there be any reference to what they were set to? I could imagine some obscure foreign games that someone submitted a long time ago that no one presently may remember what they are.

In response for Shadow quote:
That was my initial concern in the staff forums too. I would like the reset to not clear out existing Genre/Subgenre information. Hopefully much like the release type field we can find a way to differentiate between new and old to see what has been corrected and what has not.

Subgenre will definitely have to be reset.

...not resetting Genre could be very difficult. I could just add the new ones beside the old ones, and we'd have to make sure they kept getting updated (e.g. change the current Action/Adventure to Action/Adventure (Deprecated)), or just clear out the ones that no longer match up (e.g. "Unique"). However, how do we want to handle Genres that have changed definitions?

[bombatomba]

oyang's got a good point.  I believe a simulator should be more towards something like Railworks or Microsoft Flight Simulator - first and foremost they strive to simulate the real life experience.  The tycoon-style games teeter on the edge, I'd say more towards strategy usually.  Zoo Tycoon: it's kinda simulating being a tycoon, but is it really mimicking reality all that much?  If you focus on the core gameplay, it's more about strategically building up your zoo for success.  Now, you could say driving a train in Railworks requires strategy - true, but only because it's simulating a real train.  This is a very fine line, draped with opinions... but I say tycoon games tend to be about strategically building up something, rather than simulating the experience of being a tycoon.

Just imagine the designers at Blue Fang, giving birth to Zoo Tycoon - did they set out primarily to accurately recreate a zoo and all of its inner-workings, or to build a game about a zoo, consisting of bunches of components you the player can strategically ( ) manipulate to meet a goal?

Just throwing that out there.  It's tough, and probably has to be decided on a game-by-game basis.  It might be easy to label something like Zoo Tycoon a simulator since there are many similarities to what a real tycoon does... but then would Warcraft be an orc-general-simulator?

The thing is that you are simulating a zoo director (albeit in a very light fashion).  Labeling a game a pure strategy game can be very dangerous, primarily because the name itself has always carried a strong combat feel to it (traditionally).  Games such as the Tycoon series have traditionally been called business simulation because the main focus of the game is running a business, much in the same way that The Political Machine has always been labeled a sim, even though there is quite a bit of strategy to running a campaign.  Speaking of politics...

I'd like to lobby for a Sandbox subgenre put into the Vehicular Combat genre, with the goal being to accommodate Vehicular Combat games where the combat is secondary to a large, free-roaming world where there are plenty secondary goals and activities (similar to established Sandbox games like GTA and Oblivion).  This would help differentiate titles such as the X series (X3 The Reunion, X2 The Threat), Wing Commander: Privateer, Elite, and Evochron Mercenary which are all about freedom and diversions (and trade) from titles such as Freespace and the main Wing Commander games where the focus is entirely on combat and combat-themed missions.

The more I think about this the more I feel sorry for those tasked with approving the deluge of genre/subgenre-themed submissions that will be coming down the pipe.

[CoinCollector]

The thing is that you are simulating a zoo director (albeit in a very light fashion).  Labeling a game a pure strategy game can be very dangerous, primarily because the name itself has always carried a strong combat feel to it (traditionally).  Games such as the Tycoon series have traditionally been called business simulation because the main focus of the game is running a business, much in the same way that The Political Machine has always been labeled a sim, even though there is quite a bit of strategy to running a campaign.  Speaking of politics...

Hmmm.  Right, right.  You could pick strategy out of a lot of different games, but business simulation is a much better label for those tycoon games.  Okay, I concede. 

[bombatomba]

However, how do we want to handle Genres that have changed definitions?

That is an excellent question.  Your suggestion seems the most sane, which seems saner than trying to release all games into a placeholder genre (such as N/A) and simply wait for submissions (although this would guarantee all the games would migrate over to the new genres).

You could start by just changing the submission page to reflect only the new genre choices, and wait for the submissions to roll in.  There should be a way to bring games that haven't migrated over to peoples attention.  Maybe publishing a daily updated list on a separate page showing the names and platforms of all non-migrated games...

[CoinCollector]

Here's one more suggestion for now: Mario Kart and similar games should go in a Kart subgenre under Racing.  They definitely are racing games in which you're trying to finish the track faster than the other dudes - there just happens to be a lot of vehicular combat going on during the race.

[tactical_nuke]

About the current guidelines: it's mostly good but there are some parts I don't agree with and also a lot of it is missing newer genres that are now in the database and is outdated in that regard. I could write up a new post using Izret's work as a base and fill the uncertainties in and make it more complete. Staff, it's up to you guys. I'd put it into a thread like this for suggestions and tweaks of course.

[Shadow Kisuragi]

You're the one running the show for it, sir. Feel free to provide your initial plan, and people will be more than happy to soundoff on their feedback for it.
Cat emote just 'cause.

[tactical_nuke]

Okeydoke, I'll see what I can cook up. Also lmao I was wondering why I was ranked above DB contributer status, looks like someone took notice and took me down a peg.

[Shadow Kisuragi]

I blame Izret. I really do.

[Izret101]

Yea i made a mistake when cross referencing to make sure you would have access to the appropriate things.
WHOOPSIE!

But now you know what could be available.
STRIVE FOR GREATNESS!