New Submission Guidelines/FAQs are published!!

[Madir]

Something is a bit strange with the ds games. Take Elite Beat Agents for an example. How to add such a game. there is no regionwide european version. There is just one version for uk one for germany...
how to get this in the database.

another big problem is, that a lot of people adding regional versions as european versions and it is not possible to change the region. For example

http://www.rfgeneration.c...nfo.pl?ID=E-087-S-01330-A

the part number ends with -UKV this is an UK version. A regionwide version must have an -EUR at the end.

A thrid thing is, that in some german (or other) cases (serial ending -NOE) are cards with british or european versions (ending UKV or EUR). How to handle this? In my opinion the serial on the box is the only one counting, because u use the UPC from the box too to identify a game. So I think the box makes the game unique. Am I right?

greetings, Madir.

[Sirgin]

another big problem is, that a lot of people adding regional versions as european versions and it is not possible to change the region. For example

I see your point. However it isn't easy to go back and correct all those errors that might have been made or might have slipped through.

The problem with European games is that there are too many languages in Europe. Although a game is a regionwide release (which 99.9999% of all games are) and the discs are always the same (with about 5 (?) language options), there's mutiple covers for these games.

There's a cover for the British audience with only English text and their BBFC(?) rating system. Then there's usually one with Dutch, French, German, Italian and French text on the back. Probably there's one with Finish, Norwegian, Danish and whatnot languages on the back aswell. I don't know.

The problem is how to look at these games? Do you see them as "different" games? (Like you do) Or do you see them as the same game because it's an region-wide release? (My opinion)

My opinion: seeing all these games as different games is a bit splitting hairs when there's so much work to be done on the regular European database alone. You probably add games to the database which are, essentially, regionwide releases. Therefor I think they should be added as European games, no matter what cover they have.

However if my opinion on the matter is wrong (and these games should be seen as different entries) then I can say that a majority of European entries (atleast about 60%) are wrong because of this problem. I'd even dare to say that most European entries therefor would be wrong because then there'd be no such thing as a European entry, seeing the UK has a BBFC version of lots of games.

I wish country-specific entries would only be made when dealing with a game that only got released in that specific country. Sadly that's not the case at all.


This is just my opinion, so you should wait until Tan tells you what exactly are RFG's rules in this case. I hope my answer was of any help and can hold you over until Tan's answer.

[TraderJake]

We'd like the database to be correct. We're very well aware that the European database is woefully inadequate. If you know of games that should not be regionwide, let us know, we can change the country.

[Madir]

btw. why is this strict separation between american, asian and european releases. I most cases the only difference is the language. Why is it not possible to link then between the games, it would be a nice feature. Or will this bring the whole region/subregion thing to fall?

[TraderJake]

Sure you can link between regions. They are currently not that way because originally you could not do that. But, after 4 submissions iterations, that is no longer the case. You can use Variation Tie In to tie games across regions now if they are not currently tied.

[Tan]

The problem we have with the European section right now is we have few European members capable or willing to sort these out. We had much the same problem with Canadian versions of North American games as well. Before I came on staff we had little if any Cdn. games at all in the database and some of the ones we did we listed as American. In fact many submissions we get members incorrectly choose US as opposed to North America which is an easy oversight when you don't have the knowledge of this that we've learned over the years. So I do understand the plight of the European sections of the database believe me.

We are in the process of sorting some of these sections out as we speak. In fact one of our staff is going over the Sega Saturn database right now with a fine tooth comb and adding specific European country releases and sorting out each game one at a time.

Here's what makes a variation:

 - different language in the manual and cover
 - use of a different rating system (USK, BBFC etc)
 - combinations of the above with different part numbers and barcodes

See the problem for staff is there are few websites out there that we can use for distinguishing different releases. Sony system games aren't too bad because vendors use the SLES, ULES and BLES part number system, but others we can't verify through barcode and part number depending on the system because the info just isn't there online. So while Japanese and North American games have a wealth of information that allows us to build those regions up quickly, the European sections are a much slower process.

Having said that, feel free to submit games from specific European countries if your sure there wasn't a region-wide release or that there is more than just a single region-wide release. PAL sections are always case by case and we very much want to properly represent each country properly.

Finally just so you know, we can change regions with ease and do so on game entries on a regular basis. That goes for existing entries or those waiting for approval. We have the system and all the tools necessary to improve the European sections, just remember that it's the members first and foremost who build this database one entry at a time.

[Sirgin]

@TraderJake: I realise the database should be as correct as possible but it'll be a long and tedious job to rectify all mistakes in the European database.

Here's what makes a variation:

 - different language in the manual and cover
 - use of a different rating system (USK, BBFC etc)
 - combinations of the above with different part numbers and barcodes

If in fact games should be seen as variations (each needing their own entry) based on these criteria then let me tell you that there are very few games that can be seen as true European entries. Which contradicts with the current European database in which a large majority of games are seen as European-wide releases.

Also, if done correctly, the European database will become an epileptic nightmare seeing how different variations are being sold in different countries meaning multiple flags/countries would be added to the entry, making them alternate constantly. (=not pleasing to the eyes)


I've come up with a system that would make the European database still managable in terms of entering info for all games:
(But feel free to shoot it down if it's a bad idea)

- Only 1 entry per game if the game is released in all (major) countries of Europe. The European flag should be shown in these entries.
There should also be space for multiple part numbers/UPCs and ratings. When a scan of these games is made, it should say "UK cover" or something to that effect to let people know their cover might have a PEGI symbol instead of a BBFC symbol.
- If a game really has only been released in a select amount of countries (as in: the game wasn't released in a country in any variation whatsoever), the whole country-flag thing could be used for those entries.


An added problem is how to define a European-wide releases. Is is the European Union? Or geographical Europe that counts? It would be kind of lame to say a game isn't a European release when it has only not been released in Romania or something.

The more I think about it, the more problems I see popping up about the European database.......it'll take serious thinking to sort these out and transform the conclusions into reality.

@Tan: With all respect for you and the Canadian database; the problems of the European database are much larger seeing it's alot of countries and alot of languages. The Canadian database is more "simple" in a sense that it only takes a person to indentify a game as being a Canadian one and then adding a varation for it.

[logical123]

Hmmm... No. They should continue being different entries. A LOT of work went into the EU db, and I don't think they are all about turning around and changing they way we have the fundamentals set up. You say that it will "look ugly"? No it won't... How can you know that if it isn't being done at the present time. "long and tedious" are two words that are meant for a database of every game on Earth. There is no other way, and if it all needs to be 'fixed', let it be done. Having multiple UPC's and Part numbers (etc) will look kinda... ugly (to use that word), or more proper, very haphazard, to say the least. Good ideas, but that really isn't the direction the site should go in. Complete Database takes hard work.

[Tan]

@TraderJake: I realise the database should be as correct as possible but it'll be a long and tedious job to rectify all mistakes in the European database.

Here's what makes a variation:

 - different language in the manual and cover
 - use of a different rating system (USK, BBFC etc)
 - combinations of the above with different part numbers and barcodes

If in fact games should be seen as variations (each needing their own entry) based on these criteria then let me tell you that there are very few games that can be seen as true European entries. Which contradicts with the current European database in which a large majority of games are seen as European-wide releases.

Also, if done correctly, the European database will become an epileptic nightmare seeing how different variations are being sold in different countries meaning multiple flags/countries would be added to the entry, making them alternate constantly. (=not pleasing to the eyes)


I've come up with a system that would make the European database still managable in terms of entering info for all games:
(But feel free to shoot it down if it's a bad idea)

- Only 1 entry per game if the game is released in all (major) countries of Europe. The European flag should be shown in these entries.
There should also be space for multiple part numbers/UPCs and ratings. When a scan of these games is made, it should say "UK cover" or something to that effect to let people know their cover might have a PEGI symbol instead of a BBFC symbol.
- If a game really has only been released in a select amount of countries (as in: the game wasn't released in a country in any variation whatsoever), the whole country-flag thing could be used for those entries.


An added problem is how to define a European-wide releases. Is is the European Union? Or geographical Europe that counts? It would be kind of lame to say a game isn't a European release when it has only not been released in Romania or something.

The more I think about it, the more problems I see popping up about the European database.......it'll take serious thinking to sort these out and transform the conclusions into reality.

@Tan: With all respect for you and the Canadian database; the problems of the European database are much larger seeing it's alot of countries and alot of languages. The Canadian database is more "simple" in a sense that it only takes a person to indentify a game as being a Canadian one and then adding a varation for it.

I never compared the scope of the Canadian issue to the European one. What I'm saying is as one of the few Canadians active on the site and being the only Cdn staff member, I know what a mess region sorting and verifying info can be. In fact there are possibly thousands more Canadian games still not in the database yet because I can't verify them all. What I have verified came from eBay listings and my own collection small as it is.

We know that there are few European wide entries as opposed to country specific ones. That's our entire point. Also, yes we are willing to go over all those thousands of entries because that's what's necessary. What you propose would not only negate the progress we've made so far, but affect games from all regions because the scripts are built for global releases and because the scripts would have to be re-coded and the entire community re-trained on it's usage when the system we have now more than handles this issue and was built with it in mind.

Here:
http://www.rfgeneration.c...nfo.pl?ID=E-060-S-01350-A

http://www.rfgeneration.c...nfo.pl?ID=E-060-S-01120-A

Those are two examples of proper region/variation use in action. If a game is indeed a true variation, not just some label variation of the same regional release, it should have it's own page for many reasons. As many Europeans know, some countries have different titles, different content or omitted content and of course different ratings. On top of that, collectors want to see scans for each different release. So in order to show unique information, alternate titles, proper scans, specific ratings systems and other fields like overviews, trivia, photos for specific bonus items etc etc you can't cram all of that for 4-5 titles onto one big messy bloated page.

To summarize what I'm saying, European region wide releases for the most part are just placeholders until members start submitting more complete information so we can split them up into variations. If someone just submits a new game with no country flag, no part number or UPC, we can't very well go about choosing a country at random. Because verification info is scarce for European games for some systems and that members are simply choosing to select the region wide release as opposed to submitting a proper variation, the European section is the way it is now. So in order to fix this the European members have to meet us (the staff) halfway to solve this problem.

[logical123]

@TraderJake: I realise the database should be as correct as possible but it'll be a long and tedious job to rectify all mistakes in the European database.

Here's what makes a variation:

 - different language in the manual and cover
 - use of a different rating system (USK, BBFC etc)
 - combinations of the above with different part numbers and barcodes

If in fact games should be seen as variations (each needing their own entry) based on these criteria then let me tell you that there are very few games that can be seen as true European entries. Which contradicts with the current European database in which a large majority of games are seen as European-wide releases.

Also, if done correctly, the European database will become an epileptic nightmare seeing how different variations are being sold in different countries meaning multiple flags/countries would be added to the entry, making them alternate constantly. (=not pleasing to the eyes)


I've come up with a system that would make the European database still managable in terms of entering info for all games:
(But feel free to shoot it down if it's a bad idea)

- Only 1 entry per game if the game is released in all (major) countries of Europe. The European flag should be shown in these entries.
There should also be space for multiple part numbers/UPCs and ratings. When a scan of these games is made, it should say "UK cover" or something to that effect to let people know their cover might have a PEGI symbol instead of a BBFC symbol.
- If a game really has only been released in a select amount of countries (as in: the game wasn't released in a country in any variation whatsoever), the whole country-flag thing could be used for those entries.


An added problem is how to define a European-wide releases. Is is the European Union? Or geographical Europe that counts? It would be kind of lame to say a game isn't a European release when it has only not been released in Romania or something.

The more I think about it, the more problems I see popping up about the European database.......it'll take serious thinking to sort these out and transform the conclusions into reality.

@Tan: With all respect for you and the Canadian database; the problems of the European database are much larger seeing it's alot of countries and alot of languages. The Canadian database is more "simple" in a sense that it only takes a person to indentify a game as being a Canadian one and then adding a varation for it.

I never compared the scope of the Canadian issue to the European one. What I'm saying is as one of the few Canadians active on the site and being the only Cdn staff member, I know what a mess region sorting and verifying info can be. In fact there are possibly thousands more Canadian games still not in the database yet because I can't verify them all. What I have verified came from eBay listings and my own collection small as it is.

We know that there are few European wide entries as opposed to country specific ones. That's our entire point. Also, yes we are willing to go over all those thousands of entries because that's what's necessary. What you propose would not only negate the progress we've made so far, but affect games from all regions because the scripts are built for global releases and because the scripts would have to be re-coded and the entire community re-trained on it's usage when the system we have now more than handles this issue and was built with it in mind.

Here:
http://www.rfgeneration.c...nfo.pl?ID=E-060-S-01350-A

http://www.rfgeneration.c...nfo.pl?ID=E-060-S-01120-A

Those are two examples of proper region/variation use in action. If a game is indeed a true variation, not just some label variation of the same regional release, it should have it's own page for many reasons. As many Europeans know, some countries have different titles, different content or omitted content and of course different ratings. On top of that, collectors want to see scans for each different release. So in order to show unique information, alternate titles, proper scans, specific ratings systems and other fields like overviews, trivia, photos for specific bonus items etc etc you can't cram all of that for 4-5 titles onto one big messy bloated page.

To summarize what I'm saying, European region wide releases for the most part are just placeholders until members start submitting more complete information so we can split them up into variations. If someone just submits a new game with no country flag, no part number or UPC, we can't very well go about choosing a country at random. Because verification info is scarce for European games for some systems and that members are simply choosing to select the region wide release as opposed to submitting a proper variation, the European section is the way it is now. So in order to fix this the European members have to meet us (the staff) halfway to solve this problem.

Beautifully said Tan. That is all I have to say. Too bad I am not in Europe, because I would help out (ALOT) if I was.

[Sirgin]

Hmmm... No. They should continue being different entries. A LOT of work went into the EU db, and I don't think they are all about turning around and changing they way we have the fundamentals set up. You say that it will "look ugly"? No it won't... How can you know that if it isn't being done at the present time. "long and tedious" are two words that are meant for a database of every game on Earth. There is no other way, and if it all needs to be 'fixed', let it be done. Having multiple UPC's and Part numbers (etc) will look kinda... ugly (to use that word), or more proper, very haphazard, to say the least. Good ideas, but that really isn't the direction the site should go in. Complete Database takes hard work.

Don't worry logical, I want the site evolving in the best possible way, just like everyone else here

It was merely an idea in my head that I wrote out while thinking about it. Tommorow I might think somthing else, but that were my thoughts while writing the post. That's all The site can only get better the more ideas that are being shared, right?

And about the "looking ugly" thing. When an entry has, say 4, countries selected, the flags will flash alternating when viewed in a list. I don't find that very attractive. That's all. There are games being done like that already in the database, so it has been done, unlike what you say.

@Tan: you're right, those games have been done the right way. Eventually the whole European database will have to become like that. I was only pointing out that it'll take alot of work to get it that way, not that I think it shouldn't be done.

[Madir]

what about fields which are not available. for example a lot of old games don't have an UPC and a lot dont have something like a Part#. Should these fields be empty or filled with something like "N/A"?

[Tan]

what about fields which are not available. for example a lot of old games don't have an UPC and a lot dont have something like a Part#. Should these fields be empty or filled with something like "N/A"?

For now we'll leave them empty because it'll be more uniform than having some with and some without across the database. If it is a "not for resale" type of game that under normal circumstances, the regular release had one or both, then N/A would be good to add to distinguish them.

In time we may deal with those game pages where certain input fields have no use, but we'd rather the focus and effort to be put into adding that information that is useful.

A thousand N/A's to fill empty blanks as far as submissions isn't worth one single barcode for a game that doesn't have one.

[logical123]

what about fields which are not available. for example a lot of old games don't have an UPC and a lot dont have something like a Part#. Should these fields be empty or filled with something like "N/A"?

For now we'll leave them empty because it'll be more uniform than having some with and some without across the database. If it is a "not for resale" type of game that under normal circumstances, the regular release had one or both, then N/A would be good to add to distinguish them.

In time we may deal with those game pages where certain input fields have no use, but we'd rather the focus and effort to be put into adding that information that is useful.

A thousand N/A's to fill empty blanks as far as submissions isn't worth one single barcode for a game that doesn't have one.

Yep, yep, and yep. remember that huge discussion with me?

[Tan]

The Game Submission Guideline used by all regions has been updated with ISBN usage information. Also the European guideline has hit it's 3rd draft.