RF Generation Message Board

I know this subject was brought up once before but it might be worth a second look.

While these games can't exist physically in your collection, I think that there could be a strong case to start adding them to the database for collection tracking.  I, for one, like to keep a physical record of what I have and what I don't for planning gaming nights and to track the value of my collection for insurance purposes (among many other things).  By allowing these games to be added into the database, it would meet both needs very nicely.

While you could make an arguement that download only games were fringe even a year ago, many high profile releases are coming out download only (flOw, Tekken 5: Dark Resurection, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, Castle Crashers to name a very few).  Not to mention the huge quantity of them now (something like 48 on Xbox Live, 15 on Playstation Store, and 65 on the Virtual Console).  With this in mind, I think that they deserve a second look at addition to the games database.  It would be pretty easy to do since they can be simply added to the existing console categories.  I'd imagine that a prefix in front of the downloadable games would work nicely.  (e.g. VC: Toe Jam & Earl, XBLA: Joust, PSS: flOw).

Thanks guys and keep up the great work!

I say no. That's not to say it will never happen but once XBL goes offline that game is gone. I don't think download only games should be listed. If there are listed they should have there own separate database so if I search XB360 I only get the released games no download only games. Thats my 2 cents.

To flip that, the Virtual Console and PlayStation store games are persistant meaning you can play them offline presumably forever.

And as far as where they'd get listed, these are unique games, many of which are their own IP (original games).  I'd imagine that a game like Geometry Wars is as valid a unique console release as Gears of War.  So putting them under the original console that you play them on seems like the most logical choice, but as long as they get listed, I don't really care where.

I'm sure there's a great discussion in here debating the merits of downloadable content verses physical media.  But no one can doubt that downloadable content (games in this case) is now here to stay.  I would think RFGeneration would be best served addressing these titles like they would any other game.  And while this might open the door to a messy mobile "games" implemention, I think it would best serve RFGeneration's audience.

if they are listed here I will support that decision and add games whenever I can. I don't think i will ever have to track any myself but that just me.

I have half a dozen downloable games on my 360 and I don't feel the need to track them. All HDD's die eventually, and you won't be able to buy these in specialty shops or eBay or even trade them. They are tied to your personal profile and once you can no longer purchase them from the services they are lost forever.

It's kinda hard to add games that you can't scan, add packaging to, or put into your want/trade lists. It's like listing what cars you own and including the ones you have in your garage in Test Drive unlimited. Like Tynstar said if the majority supports the decision so be it, but even then I still won't bother adding them to my collection.

I think it would be nice if they were added in the system, but I would be OK if they weren't in there too. Personally, I would like to have the ability to list my Wii Virtual Console games so that I have a more complete inventory of what I have.

So if we got into this then would we also be adding downloaded official modules, wad files, user made dev approved mods, and other grey areas?

Flash/Java games, Windows pre-installed games like Solitaire, the list goes on and on.

If Mario 64 VC get's a listing, I'll be damned if Minesweeper doesn't.  :laugh:

YEAH! Minesweeper kicks ass! I have the Windows 3.1, 95, 98, ME, XP, and Vista versions of that game! :D

Though I'm sure you're joking, I'd think not.  I'd imagine this would only include the official stand-alone titles being offered through the big three's console offerings.  It wouldn't include any additional downloadable content not in the form of an official expansion (e.g. Oblivion: Shivering Isles which will be downloadable through XBL).

And before it comes up, I don't think demos, videos, movies, television shows, or any other non stand-along game content should be tracked.

Again, there are some great original games available only through the download services offered on the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 (though not the Wii as of yet).  It would be a shame to leave them untracked.

He's got a point there, you know. fl0w is apparently the current PS3 Jewel.

If it is okay with you guys I am going to let Scott and Tan figure this one out, while I continue to work through the arcade. I personally think there is merit to adding some downloadable titles, but there is that definite grey area when people say "what about PCs?". I'll let you guys figure that one out though.

As far as I'm concerned they aren't any more collectable than MP3's on a player are to record or CD collections. MAME isn't in the database, there are retail sets of MAME roms like the Star Rom sets that would be just as deserving. This is a big issue because it opens the floodgates to allot of things, some I've already mentioned. You can't add some downloads and not others.

Yes I do believe Minesweeper has as much right to be there as Mario 64 VC. Minesweeper has been on every windows PC in the last what 13 years or so? Why not. Then we've got Cell Phone games, DVD trivia games, crap loads of other niche markets.

At some point we would cross the boundary of collector's website into general gaming one. You can't really post in "small scores thread" about something for a buck you've downloaded from your couch. Then you'll have to add the marketplace demos as well because we add demos to the database, otherwise we'll always be incomplete. Where do we draw the line?

It's simple.  The line is drawn if it's not available from the respective console stores.

By bringing up freely downloadable PC titles you're making it more difficult than it has to be.  Look at something like Direct2Drive.  If I download Titan Quest (for example) from their service, paying for it, I'm going to include it in my collection of games.  If I download Titan Quest for free via BitTorrent, I'm not.  But with the current system, there's no reason why someone couldn't add a PC game if they've downloaded it, so effectively, your system allows that grey area to exist anyway.  How about priated games?  Yep, you can go ahead and add those too.  Or you can simply add whatever you like wether or not you own it.

Regarding MAME, those sets are "free" via Lazarus and/or StarRom.  But the big thing is you don't own any of the games on the collection.  Nor are the rom sets themselves worthy of any sort of designation in a list of video game releases.  And you already have a section for DVD games (Time Traveller, Dragon's Lair).

All I'm saying is that Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft are offering original and re-released content DIRECTLY to their customers via their online services.  These are approved releases with ESRB ratings and everything.  They're in their official game catalog.

Sword of Vermillion (http://www.nintendo.com/gamemini?gameid=k5zK--CzKF4xBISlDhDlzN4IzdjoXD4L)
Alien Hominid HD (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/a/alienhominidxboxlivearcade/default.htm)
flOw (http://www.us.playstation.com/PS3/Games/UP9000-NPUA80001)

The line is as plain as it needs to be.  These games are getting reviews from major online publications (IGN, 1up, Gamespot) and are being treated as legitimate console releases.  But if you truly do believe that Minesweeper has the same right to be tracked as Mario 64 VC then there's nothing left I can really say to sway you.

Thank you for taking the time to consider it in any case.

My point is that those games aren't collectable. I have half a dozen Xbox Live Arcade games but they don't have the same appeal as the ones I have on my shelves, that's just my opinion. If I collected movies or music i wouldn't add downloaded retail movies or MP3's to a collection list either.

Having said that you need more guidelines than whether it's paid for or if it's reviewed and recognized. Hypothetically, if downloaded games are added then demos need to be as well for sake of accuracy and completness. The RFGen database has plenty of demo discs included as entries and although I believe downloaded demos have no collecting value whatsoever they have as much right as a media form as downloaded games do.

As far as a game like say TitanQuest. The Database would have to alter it's media information or add the info somewhere else for games that come in multiple forms. People who want accurate information wouldn't want to add a downloaded version of a game versus a disc based of the same game by accident.

Don't get me wrong, I have no system in my mind as to how to do this. Mainly because it would take the input of several people to cover all the bases, and I have no interest in it personally. But I'm a member as you are, you need to convince the Admins and Editors not me.  ;)

RF Generation is a games and hardware database by its very nature. Yes, we do have awesome an awesome collection tool and possibly another tool in the distant future, but these tools would be nothing without our databases. We are, after all, the classic and modern video games database. Yeah, I know we have hardware now, but you know, our slogan is catchy, perhaps I could change it to the classic and modern gaming database, that would be more inclusive of hardware.

From a completeness standpoint, don't we miss something if we fail to include these titles in our games database? We should be striving to have a complete database, yet to ignore these games that people actually pay for and are periodically original would be to not have a complete database. Perhaps it's just me, but I do believe our legitimacy of being the classic and modern video games database is hurt if we do not strive to make the database complete.

That's my perspective on the matter. I, once again, am only one of the movers and shakers of the site, and I alone am not going to make a decision on the matter. So, Editors, Directors, Staff, Members, weigh in your thoughts, now that you know mine.

The thing is that those MAME sets are not officially released from the people who made the games, whereas the PS Store/XBLA/VC stuff is official products. There's a large difference

No, because those aren't releases for what we consider game consoles.

How could we split hairs with the N-Gage and then say Cell phones don't belong?

Appeal wouldn't have anything to do with it.  They're valid releases.


Demos are demos, they're not full games.  Thus they don't have any real place in a collection.  Personally, I feel this way about physical media demos too, but some people do collect demos so there you go.  But you bring up a good point regarding one over the other; it would negate part of my standpoint to allow physical media demos verses downloaded demos.  I'll just have to say that should this get implement, it's as simple as leaving downloaded demos out.  If, for no other reason, then that they are free and offer nothing compelling to given them a place of their own in a collection database.  Physical media at least has unique/original art and possibly additional content.

Regarding guidelines, I thought I was fairly clear.  If it's a full, stand-alone game downloaded from Xbox Live Arcade, Nintendo's Virtual Console, or the PlayStation store, then it's in.  Free or otherwise.  No "added" cars, no "additional" maps, just unique, stand-alone games.  I didn't site reviews or recognition from the mainstream as a guideline for adding it, I made those comments to justify the legitimacy of the big three online services offerings.


Nah.  That's what notes are for.  There's no benefit to adding the same game on the same platform twice if the only difference is how it's acquired.  A guy that buys a retail copy of Titan Quest and buys a copy of Titan Quest through Direct2Drive doesn't have two different versions of Titan Quest.  He's got two copies of Titan Quest.  Quantity goes up by 1.

My main driving point in this is what TraderJake touched on.  flOw is a fantastic game.  Geometry Wars is a fantastic game.  They need to be added off their own merits without bias as to how they are acquired.  You're going to see a LOT more five star content that is download only as time passes.  It would be best to get ahead of the ball then stay behind it on principle alone.  Using gray area stuff like flash games and microtransaction content is just obfuscating what should be a very easy issue.  Set the guideline and stick by it.  And as far as I see it, the guideline should, again, be full games offered on the big three online services.

Regardless, i'm going to let any of my opinions slip out of this subject and open it up to general discussion.  I think what TraderJake proposes is more than fair.  If the majority of the users want or are ambivalent about this feature than it can move forward or if the majority would not like to see downloadable releases from Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo in the database than it can die off.

Cell Phones might actually belong.  There haven't been any games I'd truly consider compelling or showcase games yet.  But it may get there soon.  Orcs and Elves, Lumines, Diner Dash, and a few others are getting close to the realm of mainstream gaming.  Not to mention the offerings from SquareSoft, specifically in Japan.  I'm not looking to open up that can of worms with my post (though it might anyway) mainly because there's no unifying source you can go to in order to see what games are available on what platforms.  But if RFGeneration were to take up that niche they might find themselves offering something really unique.

But, again, I'm not suggesting that mountain get tackled here.  Just the online stores offered by the big three.

And in all fairness, the N-Gage was sold as a handheld gaming console, not as a phone.  That's like taking PCs out of the database because they're used for business more than they are games.  Or taking the DS out of the database because it has a browser and voice chat software.

True but any cell phone that plays games is also sold as a gaming platform. I guess my opinion of what is and isn't collectable isn't shared by others. Even those UMD's we shot down a month or two ago are more collectable IMO.

But at the same time if we are striving for completeness versus collecting then we can't ignore downloadable content such as expansion packs, modules, downloadable games etc. just because they aren't mainstream or part of the big three.

Yes...

RF Generation is the classic and modern video games database.

Don't forget that in this discussion.

No. The only cell phone I can think of that was mainly marketed as a games platform is the N-Gage. All other phones that play games are just bonuses.

Thank you. That proves my point exactly. Just because it isn't as mainstream as other services doesn't mean it should be ignored. There are dozens of models and series, Even Nokia has more than one model outside of the N-Gage. Games like DOOM, Potentially Warcraft, plenty of other well known series.

I've said my piece so I'll shut up now. I can tell this is going to happen, if not now at least in the future. I know I don't have to use it if I don't want to so I'll be satisfied with keeping my collection list pure of it.

I hope this is done well and done right, the potential to leave gaping holes of games that are every bit as deserving is huge, same with demos, UMD's, GBA Videos, CD-i movies, expansion etc that after this will probably have to be re-accessed again as they represent collecting just as much as downloads IMO.

As I mentioned before about arcade cabs being added, I think that downloaded games, expansions, ect, need their own database if they are added, and shouldn't be mixed in with hardware and software. Once you start adding d/led games, a whole new bag of worms is being opened, and I think they are best suited in a category by themselves.

I have to agree with Tan and Tynstar.  I don't really think they should be added to the database.  I wouldn't be against so much to add any of the unique games but than people would start complaining why VC Super Mario 64 isn't added but Xbox Live Arcade Geometery Wars is.

Are the Nintendo VC games any different form the regular releases? If they are no different it would seem to me like we are added ROMS to the site.

I can understand why you want to add games like fLow, Geometry Wars because they are new games not a port or a ROM. If you want blissfulnoise start a pole and we can let the people vote. We just need to make sure the guidelines are followed for entering new games.

They ARE software though.  Suggesting a separate database is absurd.  And no, they're not "roms".  That's also ridiculous comparison.  They are official releases from Nintendo/Microsoft/Sony.  Even if the games are absolutely no different, how is listing a Virtual Console game different from say Kid Icarus on the GBA verses the NES?  It's just software.  Don't you already own Kid Icarus?  Who cares if they come in a different box?  Isn't that the arguement you're presenting?

And expansions are already well covered in the software database.  See any number of PC games.

To go further, if the expansion is download only it's no different then owning an actual physical copy of the expansion.  It's all just software.

And just adding unique games or games with unique features (I'm unclear as to what Tynstar is suggesting) would defeat the purpose of adding downloadable games.

It seems like the vast majority around here haven't accepted this new means of software distribution as a valid way to expand someone's game library (or at least in terms of a "collection").  And that's fine, it always takes awhile before people come around to new things.  I'll abstain from creating a poll because I don't think it's necessary at this stage.

Thanks for the consideration in the first place.