RF Generation Message Board

Sorry I haven't been around on the boards much recently, but I'm still updating my collection when I pick up new stuff.

But, I am curious if there is any intention to add an arcade category to the collection list.  I'd imagine it could include modular arcade board systems like CPS2, CPS3, Naomi, and STV all under one roof.  Might even be worth it to consolidate the Neo Geo MVS category in there since they "are" arcade carts.

I apologize if this has been covered already, but I didn't see anything that addressed this post-hardware submissions being accepted.

Thanks!

An arcade database unfortunately will not be added, if it ever is, until the hardware database is flourishing. We have the ability, under the current system, to add up to 36 databases (2 currently exist, games and hardware), so yes, we could add an arcade database in the future. There is sort of a war between the masses between whether or not the next database should be arcades or gaming magazines. Personally, I think it'll be arcades, but, as I mentioned before, a third database will not even be considered until the two databases that we have now are flourishing. The more databases we have the more maintenance and work is required to keep those databases running, so we've got to keep that going.

That's not to say that RF Generation doesn't have a bunch of cool features cooking in the pipeline though. I don't ever really stop programming, so I am always working on something, and if you ask the Black Perl nicely he may add additional functionalities to the collection system. I can tell you though that at this time, an arcade database is not on my project white board, though plenty of things are. Some of those things may not be things that non staff may ever see, but stay tuned, we here at RF Generation always have something cooking in the oven.

For the sake of clarity, I didn't mean to suggest a literal additional database or something that would require a great deal of effort from your DB/App team.  It was simply semantics that I picked the word "database".

Though I don't know how you have your databases architected, this would be no different than adding an additional "console" to the list (which I imagine are stored as tables inside of your software database).  In fact, truthfully, you could simply rename the Neo Geo MVS "table" to arcades, and allow submissions for additional titles (being arcades).

Hopefully that's clears up the suggestion some.

This is doable, but this is definitely something that the framework for console codes and which database arcades should arcades exist in. I don't know much about arcades, but is this something that would necessitate multiple console codes? I've been told that there are arcade games that actually have carts associated with them (sorry, I don't know much about arcades). 

If you help me get the right framework set to get arcades in the current system, then we can add the code. This is something rather specialized, I am not very knowledgeable on the subject. I've been told though, that you are. If you are willing to work with me on this I am sure we can get to a point of consensus where arcades can be added to either the games database or hardware database.

Thanks TraderJake, I'll be happy to assist any way that I can!

The attributes of an arcade could be very simplistic or fairly complex depending on how detailed you would like to be.

The most simplistic elements would be nearly identical to that of the games database.  The only fields that really wouldn't apply would be Part Number and UPC.  Manufacturer would be synonymous with Publisher.  And Developer would be the same.  Everything else should fit fine.

As far as an expanded set of attributes, here's an example from KLOV (Killer List of Videogames, or an authoritative site on arcade history/information)

---------------------------------
Name: Pac-Man
Manufacturer: Midway
Year: 1980
Class: Wide Release
Genre: Labyrinth/Maze
Type: Videogame

Monitor:
Orientation: Vertical
Type: Raster: Standard Resolution
CRT: Color

Conversion Class: Namco Galaxian
Number of Simultaneous Players: 1
Maximum number of Players: 2
Gameplay: Alternating
Control Panel Layout: Single Player
Sound: Amplified Mono (one channel)

---------------------------------

Things like the monitor information can range from relevant to completely pointless.  It's more relevant for differences between say a vector based game (Tempest or Asteroids) or a Raster game (nearly anything else).  It's something that can be left off entirely.

The only thing that might be of interest that isn't already captured by the games attribute list is "conversion class".  This is the "type" of hardware that the particular arcade will support.  The most common of which is JAMMA (pretty much every game from the late 80s through the late 90s used this type of connection) but some other specialized types would be things like MVS (Neo Geo's arcade platform), CPS (Capcom's arcade platform), STV (Sega's Saturn based hardware), and Williams (older Williams games like Robotron, Sinistar, and Blaster) among many others.

But to be frank, even that wouldn't necessarily be a requirement for the database and could be completely optional in creating a comprehensive list of arcades and arcade info.

There would be no need to create multiple "types" of arcades in the list.  The conversion class element puts that together nicely, but even that wouldn't be a requirement.  Simply identifying them as arcades would be enough.

Other positives in adding arcade games to the database would be for the chance to have them ranked among other classic console and PC games and to keep an accurate version history on the site since many older console games originated in the arcade.

As far as images go, the owners of arcades on the site can simply send up a picture of their arcades to add.  While there wouldn't be box shots or manual scans (unless you use arcade flyer scans of course) there's definitely an opportunity to keep a visual record of the games as well.

Anyway, let me know what you think.  And don't hesitate to hit me up with questions or ideas!  And if you think we'd be better served using PMs, let me know and I'll take it there.

Oh, and to add some information on the arcades with cartridge or "changable" media, there are actually several kinds.

The Neo Geo MVS is the most popular and well known of them.  The Neo Geo MVS is simply the arcade style motherboard while the Neo Geo AES is the home based version.  They both use carts but they are not inter-changeable between the two platforms without a special aftermarket converter.  The games themselves, however, are the same.

Other popular cart based platforms are:

Sega ST-V (or Titan) which is essentually an arcade mock-up of the Sega Saturn hardware.  Games like Radiant Silvergun, Die Hard Arcade, and Steep Slope Sliders are available on this platform.

Capcom's CPS2 which uses an "A" board (a fixed board that stays the same) which serves as a kind of "console" and a "B" board which is the game itself.  Both of which are encased in plastic and aren't actually exposed circuitboards.  The "B" boards can be changed out to install different games in the arcade.  Street Fighter vs. X-Men, Dungeon and Dragons: Tower of Doom, and Vampire Savior are examples of the CPS2 platform.

Capcom's CPS3 which uses a combination of cartridge (copy protection) and CD-ROM (game) to play.  Street Fighter III: Third Strike and Warzard are examples of CPS3 games.

Wikipedia has some great additional information on this.  And while it's not very important in the creation of an arcade database, it may be useful information if anyone is curious in learning more about arcade formats.

Tell me, which database do you think that arcade entries would fit best in? Hardware or Software. They can technically be entered into either one, but each database has some special fields.

Here is a link of all the available fields for a game entry:
http://www.rfgeneration.com/PHP/submitinfo.php?action=gameedit;sa=edit;ID=U-129-S-00180-A

While here is link showing all the available fields for a hardware entry:
http://www.rfgeneration.com/PHP/submitinfo.php?action=hwedit;sa=edit;ID=U-052-H-00010-C

I would think that ideally arcade entries would need their own special page and fields, which would require additional programming and design. Let's try to work around that.

I need to know the following:

• Which database would actual arcade games be entered into?
• Would empty cabinets go in hardware?
• There are arcade cabinets with changeable media. Would those be considered "consoles"?
• What about arcades with nonchangeable media? Would they be slumped into the "console" Arcade or Nonchanageable Arcade?
• Who is going to be the tender of the arcade pages? No one on staff is extremely knowledgeable on arcades, and ideally we'd like someone on staff that can deal with arcade additions and submissions. (If that sounds like a job you want then it is yours for the taking)

Let's work through through those issues, then we can get arcade games added.

Again, I think the best way to do this would be to turn the Neo Geo MVS console to the Arcade console and start allowing submissions from there.  Let me know if you have any other questions and PM me with how you'd like for me to help going forward.  I'm happy to do so!

Let me consult with Tynstar, I may be the site director, but I want to get his opinion before making any changes.

The Black Perl just reminded me of something. Are there more than 10000 arcade games? If there is then we could have an issue with the way our system is set up, provided we go with the Arcade games is a console code route.

KLOV lists a little under 4500 unique arcade titles, so that would be a good golden number.

Oh don't worry about that anymore, we just realized that we could in theory have up to 14 million unique titles (just titles, not including its regional variants and normal variants) per region and console code.

Still need Scott to comment though.

I think arcade cabs need they're own seperate database like what was mentioned at the start of this thread. It would make a sweet expansion to the site, and might even have the potential to pull some arcade collectors over here, but I don't think arcade cabs should be mixed in with Hardware and Software, as and arcade cab is pretty much both combined. I think they should be kept seperate from console gaming, and deserve they're own database...   just my 2 cents.

I've talked with some people, and we've come to the conclusion that placing arcade games in the games database would be oversimplifying things, and would make our database look unprofessional.

We feel that arcade games will be best served by their own database, which is probably not the words that you wanted to hear. However, in relegating arcade games to their own database we will be able to give arcade titles the thoroughness that is seen in the hardware and games database. Even looking through that example page you posted suggested that arcade games should be in their own database, as a quick glance showed fields shared between hardware and games, in addition to fields not in either.

That being said, I have decided that the third database will be the arcade database. I feel such a database will be of great benefit for collectors and also will best fit in with the existing databases. As such, it has been added to my white board of things to do. Unfortunately, while I'd love to get the database online as quickly as possible it would be unfair of me to brush aside the other projects that I currently have cooking for the site. I can assure you though that while the arcade database is not the project I am currently working on it is on the white board, which does mean that it is officially on my plan book. At this time there is no time table for when such a database will go online, but I assure you that once it is on the front burner it will be brought into the lime light.

That being said, stay tuned, as you should be excited by the next project that is coming around the corner. It's going to take a while to complete, but I assure you that the end product will make everyone happy.

And there go the rest of Dave's waking hours...

No one knows what's on my white board ;)

While I disagree with the decision it's certainly yours to make.  I don't think arcades should be made too complex because, after all, they're just games and you already have a database to accomodate that.

And arcades are no "mix" of hardware and software.  Treating it as such would be like treating televisions and stereos as video game hardware.  It's simply another "console" to have games inserted into (boards, carts, discs or a combination of each).

Regardless, thanks for the consideration and if you need help with the forthcoming database let me know.

This has been brought up before and i like the idea of them having their own "database".

Owning a ton of games and systems is very very different from owning arcade cabs, cocktail tables, etc.

So the pages for each arcade game would and IMO should be set up very differently from the games.

The type of information could be alot more extensive on each arcade games page to say the least.
Could include repair information, replacement parts, etc. Whatever is decided to be put up there for information fields should definately be explored to the fullest with those who have arcade knowledge.
 
As well as the normal information we have on the current game pages; review, trivia, easter eggs, etc

I am no arcade expert myself but it just sees like apples and oranges to me.