RF Generation Message Board

PARTICIPANTS:
GrayGhost81
singlebanana
Disposed Hero
zophar53
douglie007
MetalFRO

Shawn and I have already started playing this game, and I gotta say, "It's really fun!"  I think any of you who are fans of tactical RPG mechanics and a good story will find this game satisfying.  With that said, since Oxenfree was a short game, I'd encourage you to go ahead and get started since February is short month.  Vandal Hearts clocks in at about 20+ hours and there seems to be some added things you can find and do in the game. With that said, if you want the badass completionist ending, use a walkthrough....seriously.  I'm in Chapter 2 and am having to start the game over due to missing something important that I can't backtrack and get.  Anyway, I'm dropping in the checkpoints early in case some of you want to start.  The game is broken into 6 Chapters, so that makes for some good cutoff points:

Week 1 (February 1st - 7th) - Chapters 1 & 2 (approx. 6.5 hours)
Week 2 (February 8th - 14th) - Chapters 3 & 4 (approx. 6.5 hours)
Week 3 (February 15th - 21st) - Chapter 5 (approx. 5 hours)
Week 4 (February 22nd - 28th) - Chapter 6 (approx. 3 hours)  

I thought Feb should be Catherine.

You'd be incorrect sir.

Can't say no to the RPGs.  I'm in!

Nice!

I loved Vandal Hearts! My memory/knowledge of the genre is a bit fuzzy pre-PS1 era, but it's possible this was the first tactical RPG I played and/or truly loved. Still have my physical copy. Sign me up.

Welcome aboard!

Yes, Ill be playing also!

Added to the initial post, but I thought I'd give you all a nice BUMP so that you'd see it:


Shawn and I have already started playing this game, and I gotta say, "It's really fun!"  I think any of you who are fans of tactical RPG mechanics and a good story will find this game satisfying.  With that said, since Oxenfree was a short game, I'd encourage you to go ahead and get started since February is short month.  Vandal Hearts clocks in at about 20+ hours and there seems to be some added things you can find and do in the game. With that said, if you want the badass completionist ending, use a walkthrough....seriously.  I'm in Chapter 2 and am having to start the game over due to missing something important that I can't backtrack and get.  Anyway, I'm dropping in the checkpoints early in case some of you want to start.  The game is broken into 6 Chapters, so that makes for some good cutoff points:

Week 1 (February 1st - 7th) - Chapters 1 & 2 (approx. 6.5 hours)
Week 2 (February 8th - 14th) - Chapters 3 & 4 (approx. 6.5 hours)
Week 3 (February 15th - 21st) - Chapter 5 (approx. 5 hours)
Week 4 (February 22nd - 28th) - Chapter 6 (approx. 3 hours) 

I started the game a little while back so I hopefully wouldn't be so late in finishing the game like I was with Shining Force II.  Really enjoying it so far.  I didn't know about the missables that are required for the special ending.  I'm already at the start of Chapter 3 though, so I don't think I'm going to start the game over at this point.

I'll keep an eye open for this at the game shops over the next few days. If I can find a copy, and it's not prohibitively expensive, I might tag along, assuming I get my consoles hooked up in time :P

Typically a $20-$25 game

That's not bad at all, for a PS1 RPG!

[PLAYTHROUGH INTEREST INTENSIFIES]

We always try to make the playthrough picks affordable when we can, or at least downloadable if the original is too expensive. There have only been one or two exceptions that I can think of and they were pushed for by the community.

I scored a copy this evening, so count me in! I won’t get to play until minimum Sunday, but I’m hopeful that I can keep up 😁

is there any place in this game where you can grind levels? I just got to Chapter 3.

Nope.  This is a linear RPG.

How's everyone doing?  Enjoying the game so far??

I'm enjoying it so far.  The game definitely earns its M rating (for 1997) fairly quickly.  I was surprised at how violent the deaths were, though I guess I shouldn't be, since SotN was its contemporary in a way.  This being my first stab at a tactical/strategy RPG, I'm surprised at how fast the battle difficulty ramps up.  I'm not even through Chapter 2 yet, and a couple of the battles have taken me multiple tries to figure out the right strategy.  The whole "Support" concept is interesting, and can be really helpful, if utilized correctly.  I've also discovered that the Swordsmen class (for Clint especially) is kinda useless.  I'm having way more success with the Guardsman class.  I went that way with both Grog and Dolan, and they both seem stronger, have more powerful attacks, and can also take more of a beating than Clint, even when I have everyone outfitted with Chain mail.  The soundtrack, while not overly distinctive, is good so far as well.  The story is kind of interesting, but hasn't totally grabbed me yet.  I do appreciate that they're trying to do some character progression, though.

I started the game a bit early and am now at the beginning of Chapter 4.  My initial impressions of the game weren't great as it felt like a poor man's Final Fantasy Tactics to me (although I know Vandal Hearts came out first), but after a couple of battles the game really grew on me, and I'm really enjoying it now.  I'm really impressed by some of the little touches in the game that help streamline some of experience, such as the way buying & selling equipment is handled in shops.  I also think being able to save during battles was a very progressive feature for the time.  Not something I would expect games from 20+ years ago to have, but is almost mandatory nowadays.  The translation seems kind of clumsy, which I think drags down an otherwise intriguing story.

This is more of a personal preference, but I actually really like that your party is always predetermined based on the story.  I always have a hard time choosing who to keep and who to cut from my active party in other games.  I think some may consider the lack of party customization to be a negative for this game, but I really don't mind it at all.


I was wondering what the optimal class promotions were for each character, but I didn't want to look at a guide.  I made Clint a Guardsman and don't regret it at all.  I think the only downside with Guardsman is that they have less mobility than other classes.  I made Grog and Dolan both Swordsman.  Grog still proves to be one of my better units, but Dolan seems a bit weak.  Not sure if this is due to the Swordsman class or just their own individual stats.


Haha, I was surprised by this also.  The way the blood shoots out reminds of Johnny Depp's death scene in the original Nightmare on Elm Street.  :P

Just finished chapter 2. Can I just say, nary has there been a character name more fitting than Hel Spites? I mean, it’s just low hanging fruit. I had quite a bit of trouble with the Magnus battle. I think I had to do it 4 times before I made it through, but finally found a strategy that worked for me. It definitely came down to the wire, though! I feel like I might just be getting the hang of this game, and beginning to wonder what put me off from trying tactical RPGs before. I think maybe I had the impression that they would be too involved, or something. But I’m happy to say, I am having more fun with this than I expected to.

Glad everyone is enjoying the game!  Thanks for checking in and I agree with a lot of what everyone saying.  I'm up to Chapter 4 now and boy are the battles becoming more complex.  I'm failing a lot, but still enjoying figuring out what works and what doesn't at the same time.  I like that you can simply start the battle over during your turn at any time if you need to................however...........as a somewhat of a perfectionist, I've had a little difficulty letting teammates die and have started over at times even if the battle is in hand.  I've recently gotten over this a bit and now only start over if I lose a character close to the beginning. Hey, I want to make sure everyone gets leveled up, right?

Also, is anyone else going for the 6 keys to make Ash a Vandalier?  Oh course, I just couldn't resist and I've had to backtrack a few times (thank goodness I save in all three slots & in battle).  For more info, check out this page: http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/1324/t61237-vandalhearts-one-6-key-locations/

Love, love, love the blood spray!

Has anyone found the all of the Keys? I found one, I know I missed some of them already.

I have found 4 of them and completed 4 of the Trials so far. I am on track to get them all.  Be sure to read the link I posted in my comment above.  It is a nice guide to finding the keys, but please note that you will have to turn one of your archers into a "hawknight" because you will have to get the 5th key later in the game, which is only accessible over lava. Also, for the 4th key, you will need three treasures that can only be found by examining certain spots on the ground during battle (often causing you to extend battles by spellbinding enemies). There is one item in each of Chapters 2-4.  As a result, you can't just go step-by-step with this guide, you have to plan ahead or risk missing these items/keys.  Honestly, I was near the end of Chapter 2 once during this playthrough before I found out about the Vandalier/key option and started the game over.....yeah, I may be nuts. I'm happy to talk about or give advice to anyone trying to take on this quest.

I am on chapter 6 now, so I would have to play it all over.. I might YouTube the end with the keys found

Yeah, I don't blame you.  I just hit Chapter 5 last night.  The key thing is cool, because while not necessary, it is a nice addition for completionists and gives the game some replayability.  The key trials are also interesting battles and some have some puzzles thrown in. My only gripe.....you don't get any XP from them....

I have to disagree with you here Josh; however, let me caveat that with, I'm probably much further in the game than you.  What I really love about Vandal Hearts is the great attention to detail in the story. There is a nice and complex backstory of the world we are entering, which really sets the stage nicely. Our main character has a dishonorable past and is being manipulated by the current state. And not only is there a political coup, but on top of that there is another one simmering below the surface.  Though complex, I think the game does a great job of breaking down these seemingly tangent-like storylines and makes the plot rather cohesive and easier to follow.  Also, even though there are many playable characters in this game, each of them gets their own storyline and background, and these are well-integrated into the game.  None of these characters are simply written off, which is something we often see in many RPGs (i.e. so and so joins your party, end of storyline).

My only real issue with the story might be the use of the animated cutscenes between chapters.  I think that the idea here is great, but the animations used here really clash with those used in the game.  The former looks more "realistic" and the gameplay is of course more "cartoony," for lack of a better word. Again, the concept is great, I'd just prefer that the art styles matched up better.  Voiceover also a little strange. Ha ha!  These chapter cutscenes remind me of those in Medievil a bit. What say you Steven?

Haha, I had to go back and look at a cutscene from Medievil, but yeah, they do share a similar art style.  I agree with you in that this style works well with Medievil but looks a bit out of place in Vandal Hearts.

Yeah, I'm on Chapter 3 now, and it's definitely got a lot more interesting.  Loads of political intrigue in the story, and as more characters get added to the party, it definitely becomes even more fleshed out.  I'm digging it now  8)

Awesome FRO!  So glad to hear that.

I was too young to appreciate the story when I first played Vandal Hearts. It was too heavy with the politics initially and I kind of forgot about it right after I heard it, but I still appreciated that each character had their own backstory and subplot. It reminded me of Lunar in that way. I also remember being disappointed that there was no overworld map to move between battles. This may have been the first game I played that had all the out-of-battle moments take place in menus. That said, it streamlined things (at least in my mind) that ended up working for me.

I love the violence in this game! I like how every hit you score feels heavy and significant, with sound effects to match. And the blood fountains when you kill someone are so comically absurd that they still make me literally laugh out loud. The game definitely gets pretty difficult. This was also the first game I'd ever played with permadeath, so there were times when I restarted a battle because I refused to give up a character who I was fond of or was one of my heavy hitters. I really liked the Guardsman class. It does significantly reduce your mobility but those characters become such tanks that it was worth it in the later battles.

I'd forgotten about the alternate ending. I don't remember if I ever got it, but I have a vague memory of going back at some point with a guide to get all the keys.

I also agree about the music. The tunes themselves aren't especially memorable, but the melodies are impressive and epic. One of the vg music podcasts I listen to did an episode on Vandal Hearts music once and I was reminded how great they were. While the graphics of this game haven't aged well, the music is still great with their orchestration.

Totally agree about the violence, and the feeling that each hit/strike is impactful.  It does help give weight to the battles, which is good, because that's the bulk of the experience.  Also, re: permadeath, where/when does that factor in?  Each battle I finish, if I have characters that have to retreat, they're always back for the next battle.

@zophar53 Yeah, no characters actually die in this game, they just "fall back" and can't attack or get experience. I think you might be getting it mixed up with something else. Also please let me know the name of that podcast with the Vandal Hearts music. I would love to listen to that before we do our show. Thanks

Huh. Really??? I could've sworn some characters could die for good.....that's gonna bug me now...

Sure thing. It was VGEmpire episode 89, and it actually showcases music from both Vandal Hearts and its sequel. I didn't like the sequel because instead of having the player and computer AI take their battle turns one after the other, both you and the AI take your turns at the same time. It bugged the hell out of me because I would go to attack an enemy and, without fail, the AI would move that character at the same time so my character would attack an empty space. Supposedly you could figure out how to cheese it, but it made me so mad I didn't bother to learn how to game the AI.
http://www.vgmpire.com/2015/03/18/vgmpire-89-vandal-hearts-validation/

That AI issue with the sequel sounds...bad.  Sort of defeats the purpose of a turn-based system.  I get stuff like the ATB in some Final Fantasy games, and that makes sense, but in a strategy/tactics game, each move you make has to be planned out and executed properly.  That's one thing I like about Vandal Hearts - if I move a character next to an enemy, and go to attack, but I'm not seeing what I need to see, or I can't move in far enough to be effective, you can backtrack and cancel out of that series of moves.  As long as you don't attack or push an object, you always have the ability to cancel and start from square one (pun intended) and work through what you're going to do.  As a total newb to the genre, I really appreciate that aspect, and it's made easing into the genre a better experience for me.

@zophar53 -  Thanks for the link man!  I'm going to give this a listen today.  I'm really disappointed hearing about the AI in Vandal Hearts II.  I was really looking forward to playing that game at some point down the road, but may have to watch a few videos to see if it is indeed something that I would enjoy. 

That's a great point about the battle preparation and backtracking ability FRO!  We will definitely discuss this aspect in the Playcast.

I'm with you two. With tactical RPGs like this I like to evaluate my options before committing to a move without having to guess what the AI will do. Some really liked this aspect of VH2. If you can get good at predicting the AI's moves it adds another layer of strategy to it. But the majority of people hated it just as much as I did. These games are hard enough without seeing your moves wasted.

It's interesting to note they made a 3rd Vandal Hearts game in 2010, Vandal Hearts: Flames of Judgment for PSN and XBLA. So there is another option to play more if you want to skip the sequel. But I haven't played it so I don't know if they went back to taking turns for the battles.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

Yeah, I heard about this 3rd installment today while listening to the podcast you recommended.  I heard that the artwork was really bad. And............OH MY..............HOLY COW!

[img width=700 height=390]https://static.gamespot.com/uploads/screen_kubrick/mig/7/6/0/6/2247606-vandalhearts_77958_screen.jpg[/img]

I really liked this game a lot. I'm not an expert in the genre but I've played enough tactical JRPGs that I can kind of tell what I like and don't like. Vandal Hearts has some real "quality of life" features that kept it from ever becoming frustrating. Namely, the ability to save in battle is a convenience I cannot speak highly enough of. I have to admit, I did some save scumming with it too.  

Rich didn't like the "always counter-attack" aspect of the battle system, but I'm used to it from Fire Emblem. Of course, it works to your advantage as well, and there were plenty of satisfying enemy suicides in my playthrough.

My strategy through most of the game was to either move the entire party in one huge mass (preferably up one side of the map if a narrow one) or to break into two groups that was a fifty-fifty mix of all the classes.

My favorite class was Mage/Sorceror/Enchanter (Eleni and Zohar) as they could combine to wipe out almost the entire map in a couple of turns. Phase Shift and Salamander spells were super satisfying throughout the game.

One thing I noticed is that the bosses were not really a big deal in this game. I'm not complaining at all, it's just that for the most part they were a unique sprite with slightly more HP than the common enemies.

Okay, seriously, I just got my butt handed to me several times in a row in the battle inside the prison where you have to protect Clint, after Ash and his party storm in. How the &$@# am I supposed to accomplish that? Clint has the battlefield endurance of a paper bag, and you can’t get down close enough to help him before the enemies in range to attack the lower level party have taken out 2, if not all 3 of Clint’s team. I may have to consult a walkthrough, because I am not seeing a safe spot for Clint to hang out until I can reach him otherwise.

I had a hard time with this one too. I moved Clint to the same corner the cavalry comes through and that's what finally worked. There will be one pesky mage who works his way around to that corner but you'll have thinned the ranks enough to deal with him. Make sure Clint has healing items too.

The jailer runs away and heals himself constantly, so be prepared to hit him with everything you've got once you've cornered him or you'll just be spinning your wheels.

LOL, after I posted this, I switched up my approach based on a FAQ, and got through it :P

Nice! That was one of the tougher battles that I could not get out of without losing at least one toon.

Just finished Chapter 4, yay! That battle at the end is tough, juggling a non-lethal objective and still needing to focus on combat. I’m digging the story more now, and I must say, I like the narrator. He reminds me of the guy who narrated the original Diablo.

Oddly, the game gets much easier from there on out. 😉

So true, once you get the full army the game goes a bit smoother.

Really?  The 2 subsequent battles I fought were easier, or at least, I felt they were easier.  Maybe that means I can power through and finish the game this week.

Yeah once your Mages learn salamander, it becomes quite easy. I felt like chapters 5 and 6 went by very quickly.

Just searched for Vandal Hearts Salamander, and saw some images.  I'm loving the callback Konami obviously made there to their own Gradius and Salamander series :D

I'll have to check my save when I get home, and see if my mages have that yet. I have both of them (Zorah and Eleni) leveled past 20, and have advanced twice.  I have been making extensive use of the Phase Shift and Roman Fire spells, but if Salamander is even better, I definitely want to have the advantage.

I listened to a podcast on the music for Vandal Hearts and Vandal Hearts 2 and they mentioned that in the second one you can get a sword that looks just like the gradius ship!

Just finished Chapter V, and I now wield the Vandal Heart! Woohoo!

I just finished the game! I will definitely need to track down the MP3 for the music that plays in menu screens where you can navigate to different locations - that’s been stuck in my head since I started playing this game. One thing I found frustrating at the end is that, for the last couple battles, I couldn’t really use Ash, because too many enemies had so much range, and if you don’t surround him to where he’s immune from melee attacks, he’ll be as easily susceptible to magic or distance attacks, and get taken out quickly. So in both the Xeno and Dolf fights, I basically had to have Ash Hang back until the end, when only a couple enemies were present, and he could maybe help a little bit with the main enemy. He’s supposed to be the champion, but he is too much of a target to risk it. Otherwise, I enjoyed this experience, and am glad to have played through the game.

Also, I didn’t know anything about the keys and the Vandalier class for Ash until everyone started talking about it. I might have to look that up, and keep it in mind, should I ever choose to revisit this game.

Congrats on finishing the game FRO! 

In regards to Ash, I think you bring up an even bigger point in the game concerning gameplay and enemy AI.  I feel like the AI in this game focuses on two things: (1) understanding their movement and damage as a group and using this information to take out a single toon at a time, if they can; and (2) focusing on destroying Ash.  While this can be aggravating, I think it says a lot about the games design in terms of challenge and goals.  As you know, each battle has "conditions" and if those conditions are met, the side that attains that goal wins the battle.  I think it's great that the developers chose to focus on the enemy mobs securing their condition instead of mindlessly attacking as we see in many RPGs.  This not only ups the challenge, but makes the player consider his/her next move more. As a result, I would compare this RPG more to a chess match than an all out, overpowering brawl.

Also, the fact that the levels of the mobs in this game are not set, but instead, based on the level of your main character, Ash, keeps the game really challenging as well. You can exploit this feature by slow leveling Ash if you wish, but that kind of defeats the purpose and challenge of the game. I think that this game is unique in that with a lot of RPGs, the main character is typically your strongest, most robust force.  Here, Ash is susceptible to being taken out and has to rely on his allies to conquer each battlefield.  I like this idea in that it is more realistic and gives the other characters a sense of importance in terms of the story.  However, I can say that while Ash not be the strongest character in the game, this can all be changed by going through the process of attaining Vandalier status.  In the final battles, I had no issue with Ash leading the charge.

I finished Vandal Hearts over the weekend!  I really enjoyed it overall.  I didn't go for the Vandalier class upgrade, but I will keep it in mind if I play this one again.  Just a few random thoughts:

I mentioned earlier that I had no regrets with making Clint a guardsman, but that began to change later on.  Clint was among the best in my party in terms of strength and defense, but his lack of mobility unfortunately kept him out of the fight most of the time.  While Grog and Dolan as Swordsmen may not have been as strong, at least I could keep them on the frontlines and get some use out of them.  Unless one of them fared better as a Guardsman and could actually get around the map, I'd probably make them all Swordsmen if I were to ever do another playthrough.

I felt like this game was easier than other SRPGs I've played.  I don't really mind though, it's nice to play a comparatively more leisurely game sometimes.  Although I had a little trouble with a few fights here and there, I never felt like I was in any danger of losing the final battles.  I remember both Shining Force games being significantly more difficult, for better or worse.

Also wanted to add that I was making liberal use of the Phase Shift and Salamander spells.  Way overpowered, but very satisfying to use.  Honestly, having two mages with those spells is probably what made the game feel more on the easy side.

Great game!  I'm glad to finally knock it off the ol' backlog!  Despite the issues some may have with the other games in the series, I'm still very interested in checking them out some time.  I also have to say that I think Vandal Hearts has reignited my love for SRPGs, as I feel like I'm chomping at the bit to play a Fire Emblem or Final Fantasy Tactics game now, which I haven't played one of those in probably over a decade.

Steven, we mentioned the desire to play similar games to Vandal Hearts on the recording.

Do you have any other recommendations? I know there are tons on PSP and DS and I would love to tackle one on a handheld (though another console title would be great).

How does FF Tactics compare to this game?

Other than some of the more obvious choices, the only game that jumps out at me is Jeanne d'Arc for PSP.  I've heard good things about that one.  Maybe a Front Mission game?

It's probably been nearly 20 years since I've played FFT, so my memory is pretty fuzzy.  It's definitely more complicated in terms of party customization.  Not only can you mix and match party members how you see fit, you can also change most characters' class/job to whatever you want.  As is customary with FF's job system, you can also take it a step further and carry over certain abilities from one class to another, allowing for a ton of customization.

FFT also has permadeath, but it's a bit more lenient than something like Fire Emblem.  If I remember correctly, if a character gets incapacitated, you have three turns to revive them or else they're gone for good.  I think this applies to enemies as well...

There may be other differences, but I think FFT and Vandal Hearts are fairly similar other than those two major aspects.  I've only dabbled with Tactics Ogre a long time ago, but I also think it is very similar to FFT.

I hope that helps.  It's been ages since I've played any of these games.

I will second Jeanne d’Arc - I love the PSP, could take it to work and play on lunch breaks, and also need a good excuse to jump that game further forward in the backlog ;D