RF Generation Message Board

Drops tomorrow with special guest, Duke.Togo!  Well.....maybe just "guest." Is he special? I dunno. Maybe.

Listening now.

It was developed by westone bit entertainment... I Wonder what other games they developed?

This was a great episode. Thanks!

@Duke: You didn't yell in to the microphone?

Was I supposed to?

I wonder if that is the same Westone that developed Wonder Boy?

Also, my mom always told me I was special.

Such a potty mouth. Put poor Floyd to work. ;)

@Duke: Yes. You can kill the Pols Voice in the FDS and Famicom versions by making loud noises in the microphone.

You are correct. They did develop the Wonder Boy series. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westone_Bit_Entertainment

You are special  ;)

I know Duke knows about the Pols Voice in prior discussions we've had. Sucks that we forgot to mention it.

@singlebanana: That's the nature of podcasting. There's always something that's forgotten or facts that aren't quite right but if everyone stopped to check it would kill the flow of discussion and wouldn't be entertaining.

I am going to have to agree with Duke and the guys who say Zelda is an Adventure game, not an RPG.  There is no party, no grinding, no random encounters, no stats really to speak of.  The weapons you get are items, some of which can be taken away.  It doesn't have any of the hallmarks of an RPG, but it does give you a sword and say go out and explore.  That sounds like an adventure game to me. 

I knew I liked you for a reason, Wempster.

Also, I call shenanigans on all the bleeping. I think there was some unnecessary censoring going on.

We also forgot to mention this difference about the 2nd quest: the stupid red and blue bubbles. Grrrrrr.

Sailors can't call shenanigans....

Oh wow, how did we forget the bubbles?? Ugh, worst part of the second quest for me.

1. No party - okay, so the first Dragon Quest/Dragon Warrior isn't an RPG...
2. No grinding - you do some grinding for Rupees, which you need to purchase items. Many of these items either allow you to move forward in the game (like in many RPGs), or in the case of the blue ring, increase your defensive stats by lowering your Armor Class so that you take less damage
3. No random encounters - soooooo.........you saying the Ys series isn't an RPG either?
4. Not stats - no "visible" number stats as you see in lots of RPGs, but in equipping different swords and rings, respectively, your ATK goes up in number and your AC goes down (which though not visible to the player is based on an internal, numerical formula within the game's program). This is proven in how many hits it takes to dispatch enemies based on sword quality. Blue Moblins are a great example: wood sword - 3 hits, white - 2, and magical - 1.
5. Items can be taken away - which items (plural) are you referring too?  The only item that can be "taken" is the magic shield. The magic shield provides NO benefit in terms of stats. It does not lower your AC, it merely allows you to block different types of projectiles. As stated before, the only items that benefit stats are your swords and your rings (which cannot be taken away).  Like many RPGs, the purchasing or discovering of new weapons and armor increase your ATK and DEF stats respectively. I would argue that Zelda is no different in this regard.
6. Gives you a sword and says go out and explore - Wow! You basically just described about every RPG I've ever played. How many RPGs have you played where you begin in a "starting town," walk around it, find a little gold (or start out with some), walk in an item shop (cave), and buy your first offensive weapon and maybe a cloth robe for defense if you have enough money. I really can't remember the last RPG I played that didn't start out this way.

You guys are going to have to do better...

I think that the biggest point I am trying to make is that you CANNOT specifically define what an RPG is. With the development of new games year in and year out, the term continues to fragment and evolve.  As an early game, Zelda takes a great deal from early tabletop D&D. Though seemingly different on the face, many facets of the traditional RPG are hidden within it.

Sonic the Hedgehog 2 is an RPG by these criteria.

Maybe it is.  Maybe Sonic the Hedgehog 2 is the Pitfall! of RPGs. ;)

I enjoyed the episode a lot and it got me thinking what an RPG really is. To me, an RPG means playing a role. This is something like D&D, or video game-wise, Fallout or Baldur's Gate. You create a character, give them a personality, make decisions and choose abilities that shape them. Things like XP and levelling up are secondary. However, by this more narrow definition, I'd argue that most JRPGs aren't actually role playing games. Taking FF7 as a well known example, you don't shape your character. Cloud is Cloud. He levels up, he gets new abilities, but it's the exact same Cloud for you as it is for me. Looking at LoZ, Link is just an empty shell. His only role is swinging a sword. I wouldn't classify it as an RPG by my more narrow definition, but in terms of the broad "assuming the role of a character in a fictional setting" then it is. But so is almost every other game.

As I was typing this I had a feeling I've said all this before somewhere, and it ended up I had.

http://www.cannotbetamed.com/2014/09/18/role-playing-game/

Nice response and article Pam!  As I have mentioned before, I played a decent amount of D&D growing up, so a lot of what I deem an RPG comes from those roots and I think all video game RPGs (and even other games we label differently, have similar qualities) to some extent, owe a lot to this history.  Personally, I define the term "RPG" through D&D and consider most games that have most, some, and even a few components of those early games an RPG.  With time, what we label an RPG has changed (your example of FF7 is fantastic) and this label is continually evolving and further fragmenting as more time passes.  We've even created sub-categories for RPGs to further differentiate this phenomenon.  As a result, I don't think anyone can neither "clearly" define what an RPG is, nor say that this game is one and this one is not.  How many elements of an RPG (if we are using D&D as a model) does a game need to be labeled an RPG?  Five? Three? Is even one enough?  What one thinks is a RPG, there is always someone who will argue, "Well, I don't know, it doesn't have this?" or "Well, this game has added this feature, so does it go too far and become something else?" 

Admittedly, I'm playing a little devil's advocate here (though I do strongly believe TLoZ has enough elements to be labeled an RPG).  However, while playing TLoZ this time around, I started having these thoughts about the game and some of the characteristics of TLoZ started meshing with elements from my D&D days.  As much as I can say that this game is an RPG, someone else can say it is not. But, at the core of it all, this definition is an impossible premise to agree upon and will always create conflict. For if you pin this definition down, you will not only eliminate games you don't consider RPGs, but also find that you will be singling out and force yourself to remove games that you love and vehemently consider RPGs.

For me, in an RPG you need EXP or some sort, a way to level up your character.  You also need towns (or other place) that "enhances" the story or where you receive more quests.  Games like Zelda 1, the quest is laid out before you with no enhancement to the story.  FF, the quest is laid out before you but towns and other quests "enhance" the story.  Anything without would be in a different genre. Zelda 1: Adventure game, Zelda 2: RPG, LoZ:LttP: In between.

You didn't believe me, I had to throw the Sunday Funday's in for proof. ;)  What?  You don't think the Sunday Funday's are real?  And I actually went to my parents to find Jaws.

That's not proof that you played it. Only that you own a $2 game surrounded by several $250 games. ;)

Is this proof enough? ;)