RF Generation Message Board

Can I get this cleared up... I was under the assumption that Repro carts were a no-go but after taking a look through what's in the Homebrew Genre, found DK, Mario Bros, Pac-Man and Space Invaders games. Where are the lines drawn? How come unreleased game repros can't be submitted but DK Pie Factory can?

I'm interested in this question as well.  I have English-translated repros of Final Fantasy V and Secret of Mana 2 for Super Nintendo and I'd like to be able to add them to my collection properly instead of "sneaking" them in as Super Famicom carts. :p

This may not clarify much...but, I'll try:

Homebrews are allowed when they are original IPs. Pirates are not allowed, as they are typically ROM hacks based off illegal usage of IPs. Repros are fan-released versions of non-original IPs, and fall into a hazy area of legal and illegal. I don't know where homebrews based off active IPs fall, but I presume they're okay if Nintendo hasn't cracked down on them. Nintendo's pretty good on their IP protection, even going as far as to make money off YouTube videos of people playing Nintendo games and almost shutting down the Smash Bros. EVO tournament.

I'm getting mixed messages here.  ???

On a related question, I found Slender and TF2 in the database even tough they're free to download and play. I know TF2 used to be purchasable but Slender? Does this mean we can add free indie PC games to the database?

I did say "TRY", didn't I?

i'm not sure about Slender, but wasn't part of the free to play not being ownership issue more to do with most FTP games being stand-alone releases with no platform? i could be wrong but i feel like TF2 is different because it's through Steam, especially since it used to cost money. A more recent example is that Battlefield 3 was just marked free along with Plants vs Zombies Game of the Year Edition on Origin for a few days, does that mean those games aren't counted in the database anymore because theoretically everyone with a PC could own them by now just like with TF2?

Essentially what he is saying is it is a game by game and approver by approver basis.

If someone submits something that is not supposed to be in the DB based on one persons ideas they might not approve it or deny it flat out.
Then another approver might just accept it out of hand or have a different standard and accept it.

In my mind:
Homebrews - OK to add. People have made new games or finished/released something that was shelved in the development process and never saw light of day.
Reproductions - Not OK to add. It is a bootleg IMO. (Worth noting i have bootlegs i want a way to track myself :P )
Hack - Not OK for above reason. Though again this can tow the line as i have seen some ROM hacks that were REALLY good and practically whole new games(homebrew) and ones that were just minor tweaks(repro)

I've got some nicely done repros in my collection from RetroUSB like DK Pie Factory and SMB2j. While I would like to track these in the collection tool, I am also understanding if it is decided that these fall outside the boundaries of the database.

Hmm ok, we'll leave it at that then. Any consensus on free downloadable PC games?

The flood gates are already opened on PC games.

I generally disagree on limiting the reproductions and hacks on the forum and collections. I will of course respect any site decisions regarding that however I would like to give my own input regarding the subject.

I happened to be a big fan of Timewalk Games when they were around. I really enjoyed how you could get excellent translations, hacks, and homebrews from them complete in a nice box with a manual.  I personally would like to see their entire lineup cataloged so that I can know which of their games I still need and hopefully obtain them.

Also one huge benefit of the reproduction boom is the fact that finally we are getting alot of old RPGs getting translations for english players. These Repro carts deserve documentation in my own opinion.

Of course I believe that these lists should be kept separate from the console Master Lists of games, under like a hack/homebrew list along with the source of the reproduction serving as the publishers.

To conclude I want to thank the creators of this site for having such excellent tools to document our collections, and I understand if it is not possible to allow these games to be added to the database.

I can appreciate your arguments supernorst, as I have some of these games in my collection. Unfortunately, since they are not legitimate releases it would be unreasonable to catalog all of them as anyone with an eprom burner and a soldering iron can do a release. Yes, there are some very high quality releases, but ultimately they are piracy.

Does this mean I won't own some? Nope, I like them. Should they be in our database? Probably not.

They may not be legitimate releases but this calls into question what a legitimate release is. I believe that if a company produces a game, labels it, packages it, and sells it; than a game is a legitimate release. Legality of course is a bit different. I would def call a Timewalk title a legitimate release simply because everything of theirs was labeled as a timewalk game. The backs of games had stickers that promoted their website. Same with the boxes. I would look at them as simply another unlicensed developer.

Unfortunately, even thought their games are well produced, they don't own the rights to the software they sold. This is piracy.

Unlicensed publishers own the rights to their games, they simply lack the license from the manufacturer to produce titles for the platform.

They are piracy, I don't disagree with that. However they exist, and are a part of many gamer's collections. Therefore I believe they should be cataloged in some way. That's just my 2 cents.

the problem is that the site wants to try and stay away from cataloging things that are illegal basically. i don't think there's much else to it than that :P

Pretty sure Nintendo can come down on the site that was selling DK Pie Factory. And that's still in the DB... Those games I mentioned that were using copyrighted IPs can't be legal and yet here they are.

This is something I've said that I will step aside in for conversation's sake for multiple reasons, but I did want to correct something: There's nothing illegal about tracking information on pirates/bootlegs. It's not an issue about protecting the site. It's more an issue about quality control in my mind.

I agree with you fully Shadow Kisuragi. I will also state that I feel there is little difference in listing a hack like DK Pie Factory, and a mario 3 hack like Super Mario Adventure or say the fixed version of Castlevania 2.

There are high quality hacks/bootlegs like Pokemon Black, and then there are things like the random Brazilian MK hacks that izret wants to track. What separates the two? Should both be in the database? The first was created by a team, and the second was some random cartridge that someone hacked up since it was illegal in their country.

I would say both should be in the database. Many of these hacks are worth playing. Super Mario Adventure gets a huge amount of playtime from me. The only restriction I would add is that these games should have physical releases to be in the database, along with some quantity of games produced. I would also prefer that the variants be cataloged, different repro teams/individuals should be noted for example.

I fall into the, "if the item exists, we should track it" crowd.

RFG isn't in the business of deciding the legality of items. We just want to track things. I'm sure if we dug around we could find all sorts of games that have dubious legal rights to be sold, in our DB. I'm not sure why we are worried about it. In my garage, right now, is an obvious, full sized, bootlegged Ms Pac Man arcade machine. It was made in 1982, along with many other bootlegged Ms Pac Man's of various quality. They are part of history. They exist. What does it matter that the manufacturer probably didn't have Bally-Midway's permission to be sold as far as it being a thing, an item, an object that exists?

That being said, RFG (in my mind) should still practice discretion when approving submissions that are obviously fake, homemade-one-offs or jokes.

Also, if we are worried about the man-power to work on these items submission wise, that is a separate topic. I don't want to have lax standards just because I want to see "hacks, bootlegs, ect." in the DB. If there aren't knowledgeable approvers for items being submitted, than something else needs to be worked out.

What about games like Kabobber or Thwocker? They were prototypes which were later released. Are they homebrews when Activision is the company that finally did release them?

I'll play devils advocate. If I download a ROM, burn it to an EPROM and solder it into a cart, and I only make one copy for myself, it exists. Should I then expect it to be in our database?

I realize this is taking the argument to its extreme, but if we set guidelines they should apply universally IMHO.

i never meant that it's illegal to track them, just that i figured we wanted to stay away from anything released in illegal ways...unlicensed being a bit more of a grey area, and homebrew being completely ok in my mind because those are usually completely original games and not just straight copies to profit off someone else's work.

But what about the games I mentioned? Are the Homebrews? Or official releases?

From what I read, Thwocker and Kabobber are just prototypes that someone found and released. Technically, whoever produces cartridges of those (or in some other collection) would be committing piracy. If Activision themselves decided to do a run of carts or included them in a compilation, then that would be a legitimate release.

Homebrew is a game made by a programmer (or small group) that is produced for a system that is past its commercial life span.

A pirate is either a direct copy of a game, or a new game using IP that they don't own the rights to.

I've heard people also use the term "pirate originals" for software released for a system clone that is unauthorized. Honestly though, if it is compatible with the original hardware, I would consider it unlicensed.

RFG makes no distinction at this time in the database regarding licensed/unlicensed/pirate.

Ah, I understand then. I happen to know that Activision did in fact release Kabobber and Thwocker as part of Activision Hits Remixed for the PSP. Theoretically, I believe that could make them eligible for inclusion on the database.

They were never officially released on the 2600 so no, they can't be included.

That is sad. The completist in me wishes this site had a prototype listing. But of course, I understand that would cause too much confusion.
I'm confused, though... Why is Combat 2 included on the database?

You know, making "Hack" and "Prototype" into release types might be a good option. That way, they're in the database but distinctly separate from legitimate releases. I still don't think straight up pirate carts belong though. The separation would be like:

Totally Original But Unlicensed Games Released After Lifetime of Console >> Homebrew
Modified Existing Games that use IPs, IE. Translations and level hacks >> Hack
Unreleased Games and Builds >> Prototype

This. I heartily agree. I feel prototypes are important enough to document. Even if not legitimately released, they do *exist*. Some exist in compilations. As I noted before, Combat 2 is included, but not Thwocker. That doesn't really make sense to me.

i'm not sure about Combat 2, but i will say that a game existing in a compilation doesn't make other copies of the game eligible for the database, only the compilation itself. as for the hacks as release type, i'm against that because that would open a floodgate of "what is a hack". we might have people submitting modded games as "hacks" and it would be a mess. not to mention that if it's someone re-releasing a game that someone else made, and changing a few lines of code to make it "theirs", that's still illegal because they don't own the rights to the IP.

to me, unreleased, prototypes, and hacks shouldn't be included because they have no defining standards that could be easily tracked. no console would have a definitive "complete list" if they were in the database, as every game has a prototype. unreleased is kind of in the same boat because that could be potentially endless too. hacks are just illegal :P

if it's a totally original game that was just released without the system maker's permission (unlicensed/homebrew) then that's totally ok because it's not stealing anyone's IP to make the game.

Apollo added it. When he chimes back in i'm sure he can give reasoning.

I disagree with having hacks in the DB for the same reason techwizard mentioned. Changing some code is still piracy without permission from the IP holder.

I think I added that back when our stance on reproduction carts was in limbo, I should probably delete it considering we don't generally allow repro carts anymore.

Its a shame. There is really nowhere one the web that shows a complete list of games released from Timewalk games. Its already quite difficult to seek out their releases and there is no data on how many games they released and in what quantities. Good luck to anyone like me who wants to find more of their games.

Hear, hear.  I understand the arguments others are making against it but I still feel as if they should be tracked for reasons such as these.  I've added a few more repros to my collection since this discussion began and they are still more "real" than anything in anyone's Steam library, which we also track (for some reason).  We're doing a disservice to those who wish to track these games and I view them as no less legitimate than my Maxi-15 or various Tengen carts.  

I do, however, agree strongly with this...


Pretty much... where is the line drawn and how fuzzy is that line?  There are other problems too.  Who published it? What year did it come out? UPC #?  Part #?  A few things would have to be overlooked in order for it to work.