RF Generation Message Board

I'm increasingly worried that gaming and collecting as we know it is coming to an end.

The growing DRM schemes PC gamers have had to endure from publishers such as Ubisoft and EA the last couple of years seem to me writings on the wall on what's in store for console gamers.

Both Ubisoft and EA are notorious for including extreme DRM in their games. "Always-on" DRM, requiring players to be connected to the Internet at all times, even for single-players games, are becoming mainstream. This always creates a massive backlash against the publisher in question, who usually defends itself by saying it's to "combat piracy". I wonder how many genuine sales they miss out on due to these DRM clusterfucks, compared with sales "lost" to pirates who weren't going to purchase the game anyway.

The latest episode in the DRM saga is EA's release of Sim City 5. Or "Sim City" as the game is actually called. I absolutely hate the recent trend of no longer numbering sequels. Imagine if the next Final Fantasy game would simply be called "Final Fantasy". The new Tomb Raider is also called "Tomb Raider". How absolutely retarded. But that's a topic for some other time.

Anyway...back to "Sim City".

In short, the game has always-online DRM, forcing gamers to play on servers, even for single-player games. Nobody at EA tested whether this system actually works, because players can't access the servers, effectively preventing customers from playing the game they just spent $60 on. The game also requires Origin, EA's Steam-clone, inferior to Steam in every possible way except in its ability to frustrate gamers by not working properly. Whatever you do, don't read Origin's Terms & Conditions. If you do, you'd find out EA can basically look at just about anything on your computer.

Have a look at Amazon user reviews (http://www.amazon.com/SimCity-Limited-Edition-Pc/dp/B007FTE2VW) of Sim City for more details about how the game fails in just about every way possible. The game is getting bombed with 1-star reviews. Great job, EA.


As this is a console site, I'll stop talking about Sim City and start talking about my real concern: the next generation of consoles.

While this generation has seen some forms of DRM, mostly from publishers, in the form of online passes and DLC, the next generation of consoles (PS4, Xbox 720) will undoubtedly feature draconian DRM, implemented at a hardware/OS-level, similar to what PC gamers have had to experience in recent year. It is very conceivable to think that "always-online" DRM will be implemented by Sony and Microsoft as well. Used games will be a thing of the past, with everything tied into your console/account. Want to borrow your friend's game? Forget it. Lose access to your account somehow? Tough luck!

Perhaps even scarier is this possibility: always-on DRM that requires you to play on servers opens the door to...limiting the time you can play a game. Want to play Madden NFL 15 in 2017? Sorry, we closed down the servers! You better buy Madden NFL 18! ::)

While the majority of the world lives in the here-and-now, many of us at RFG enjoy playing yesteryear's games. How will we ever be able to play a 2016 game in 2030? Don't even think about it. Ignorance is bliss. ;)

Fun times ahead. Discuss.

I think collecting as it has been since the start of video gaming will certainly change with this new generation of consoles.  I don't think collecting will disappear completely, but it will certainly be the start.

Nintendo was once very against DLC, yet in Fire Emblem: Awakening, you can buy DLC maps for $3-4 that will provide at most 15 minutes of gameplay.  The industry is changing to allow for higher profit margins for game publishers, which comes at the expense of the physical aspect that we all enjoy about collecting.

I'd be surprised if the upcoming console generation moves to an always online style of DRM. There are still vast numbers of current gen consoles that don't ever get hooked up to the internet at all, and I can't see publishers wishing to limit their sales that heavily.

i'm with duke i don't think this generation will be that bad, we already have the Wii U and it doesn't have that, so at least 1/3 of the big consoles will still be collectable. others have said it before and i'll say it again, if a generation becomes download only, or enforces extreme DRM as the norm, that's probably the point most of us will stop playing as collectors. for the occassional exclusive that looks really good i might still play, sure, but i wouldn't be worrying about collecting anymore. there's also the fact that there are just so many games out there for older systems to collect that even if the entire video game industry just stopped, and video games became extinct, there would still be decades worth of collecting for most people.

The one thing that scares me the most about the next-gen consoles may be the blocking of used game sales. That irks me more than anything else. I could live with online-only IF Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft followed Steam's model and tied it to an account rather than the console. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like that will be the case. If download-only becomes reality next gen, that will essentially be the exit point for me as a collector. A lot of employees I talk to in the B&M retail sector are nervous, since this affects them too. I doubt B&M retail outlets would be willing to sell a line of code as opposed to a physical copy.

My burning question is this: If the console makers really do go this route, then why BOTHER with consoles at all at this point? Why don't Sony, M$, and Nintendo just tell everyone to get a smartphone/PC/tablet and go to their respective cloud sites and download the latest titles there, like Steam? I can't imagine any console maker making THAT much profit off hardware sales anymore.

As a gamer I don't understand why anyone would want to go to the store and stand in line with a bunch of mouth breathers when they could just download the game while they're eating a bowl of cereal.

As a gamer I see Steam as the future. They fight piracy more with their great sales than with their DRM (which itself is fairly successful). You also have instant access to updates, can connect to friends, etc. Probably something more akin to a streaming Netflix of games is the future. In this respect I think PCs and consoles will continue to slowly and surely meld together and sail off together into that neon future. It honestly doesn't even make sense for companies to waste the raw materials making physical copies anymore.

Now, this is from my perspective as I stated, "as a gamer." I realize that it is a sad day for the collector who is more concerned with gathering all of the games than he is with playing them. In that regard, yes, it is the beginning of the end of the physical collection.

Everything will be online, or more accurately in the cloud, and sooner than later. Collectors of new games need to just accept it. The collections of the future will be on hard drives instead of bookshelves.

That's not to say you should not collect classic games, they're still going to be out there and sought after for a long while to come.

This is the problem with Steam/digital as i see it:
Quoting James from the RFG Chat earlier:
"[21:21]   JamesFandroid   I have my gaming pc but i cant actually play any games on it
[21:21]   JamesFandroid   Theyre just about all on steam
[21:22]   JamesFandroid   And steam wont load until i connect to the internet
[21:22]   JamesFandroid   But my pc does t have wifi and i do t want to connect my mobile i case it ends up dow loading a lot of stuff
[21:22]   JamesFandroid   And i still keep missing the n key"

That and the first Steambox coming out is 1k$ apparently.

Well sure, we are still in the interim period. The changes aren't here, but they're becoming evident. It won't be long before the problems James is having are non existent. Internet speed and capacity is only going to grow until it is general across every device on the planet.

The day they go online only is the day I stop buying new games. It irritates me to no end that one day I won't be able to find a hard copy of a game. To those who say "I don't understand why anyone would want to go to the store and stand in line with a bunch of mouth breathers when they could just download the game": that's what Amazon or anystore.com is for. Other that the day or two wait for the game it's the same thing. You pay shipping instead of gas. And you don't have to leave the house save for the walk to the mailbox.

To me people who argue this sound just like any generation of consumers swearing off of the latest wave of technology. You'll complain and whine and slowly come to accept it until you can't remember what it was like to listen to music from a cassette player in the first place.

It's simply evolving technologies. In this case we are presented with an interesting situation due to the existence of what many of us are: the hybrid "collector/gamer." Arguably this is anyone who has ever bought a physical copy of a game as you are, in the act of buying a physical copy of a game to play, collecting. Therefore, the two have gone hand in hand since the very beginning of gaming.

For many of the people in this community the collecting became even more fun than the gaming did, and it is going to be hard to see that physical element, that thrill of a new box, go away. I understand, I feel twangs of nostalgia about it myself, but it struck me a few years ago when I went out of my way to buy a copy of Empire: Total War, wherein the disc inside contained an EXE that downloaded the game from the internet. At that point I was left with a crummy manual, some meh box art, and a CD I didn't need to play the game.

I consider that experience the point where I decided to stop collecting and just be a gamer. I still adore all my old games, have lots of awesome memories of them, and still plug them in now and again. But if I want to play a new game or a game I don't have I'll just get it however I can. I just want to play a game to escape for awhile, and I think that's what most mainstream gamers are becoming.

Why would collecting end when there's still loads of the old stuff out there?

exactly what i was saying, think about how many other non-gaming things people collect that are obviously not in production anymore. what's so special about video games that means a change in the industry changes the way you collect? in the end the only thing that will change is that collections will start to be more satisfying (imo). sometimes i think about how endless it is and about all the awesome collectables and games i'm missing out with each passing generation. but if the next generation were suddenly not collectable, we all can start focusing backwards and all our funds will be put towards completing more full sets. think about how much easier it would be to flush out your older collections when you're not spending retail on the newest games.

as much as it'll be kind of sad, i think it'll be great for us too.

The difference between game collecting and most other types of collecting (as I alluded to somewhere up there^) is that gaming and game collecting have gone hand in hand since the very beginning of gaming. That dynamic, however, is vanishing as physical copies become a thing of the past.

Of course there will still be retro games, but the collecting of modern titles will become less and less fulfilling as they cease to exist in any form we are used to.

Here's why as a gamer, I have no desire for a digital future. You don't own anything. Enjoy that huge catalog of Steam games? That's great until some executive idiot at Steam does something spectacularly stupid and bankrupts the company. Then all those games you purchased are magically gone.

Companies do not last forever. Without physical medium you are long term leasing at best, and overpaying to rent at worst.

I refuse to do any gaming online, I never have it has NO interest in my what so ever... you have no connection with the game then ... where you can buy the disc and look at the awesome cover art and the thrill of putting a new game in the console. compared to now where you download, hit play... where is the connection where is the fun?

and the fact saying that we will grow to accept it...i beg to differ... I still haven't accepted CDs I prefer Vinyl and still only buy vinyl, CDs have a more high pitched sound compared to vinyl with WAYY higher fidelity (hence Hi-Fi)

anyways back to the subject I have almost dial-up speed internet mostof the time so if I want to get a game I'll have to wait a week to play it after I paid for it... compared to buying it at a store and playing it as soon as I get home ... it just seems impractical.

Gaming as you know will eventually end.  That is the way of things in years past and how it is now (and in the future).  Gaming was different ten years ago, and then years before that, and so on.  In order to move forward we have to move forward.  It's a super simple concept:  Do you want to buy that shiny new PS4 or next Xbox?  Then you have to play by their rules.  Otherwise just play and collect the old games, as there are certainly enough to go around, and many of them more fun than what is out now anyways.  This is my personal solution, and one I recommend.

But I still don't think that the near future is as bleak as everyone is groaning about.  I think we are more likely going see a situation like the DRM in Diablo III than a full-blown digital only program.  People complain, but they still purchase those types of games, so it seems more likely.  It's a situation that people with any type of Internet access can have, and might even force people who don't have it but play games to sign up.

But if you want to see when the "digital-only" era begins, look towards broadband penetration percentage in the United States.  It should be around 70% now of households now and the closer it inches towards 90% or 95%, the more likely it will happen.

I don't play games online and if I do indeed download a game, it wouldn't have always online DRM and don't use Steam at all even though I did have an account. While I'm not much of a collector, more like a player who has a collection, I see a game as a game with the boxes, manual and disc/cartridge/card being the wonderful extras (prefer the retail boxed version unless the download is really really cheap like with Darksiders, try to get a complete version for future generations but is impossible in most cases [only Rockstar, Warner and sometimes Sony out of the ones that I play]). Nowadays games don't even have manuals with about half of my Vita games don't come with manuals at all (only Sega really bothered and even then paper thin, EA is just legal gibberish like Warner Bros on the PS3/360 and Sony is a season pass at the most) so it would be a matter of time when everything goes digital only. It is getting sort of like that in the UK where the retail/bricks and mortar shops are dying off (two big chains are in administration and are on the verge of closing down) where your only options are an over priced shop (Game), Grainger Games who sometimes sell US stock and put PEGI stickers over it but it has been my option lately since if it is UK/EU version and they are cheaper it is worth getting*, the supermarkets (limited range and limited stock), CEX that is just second hand stock [not good if a game has an online pass or funny about used games like the Vita] or online only places like Amazon/ShopTo that I don't trust due to knowing how easy things get hacked especially credit card info [use top up cards bought via cash from supermarkets on PSN, all games are purchased via money]. The Wii U will be my last console but I'll predict it is going to be hard to find the games, even more than now that itself is tricky especially new Vita games. Doesn't help that many games that are out are not exactly my cup of tea (as in not into military FPS/RTS/RPGs or very strong Japanese vibe [e.g. Vocaloid Project Diva/Catherine]/most sports games/most mobile games).

* - To put things into perspective, they were the only place not online who offered Hitman: HD Trilogy at £20, the same price as a downloaded copy on PSN. The supermarket it was £23, HMV [nearly closed] and Game offered around £30 that is considered  way too much by my standards (they were as bad as selling the EA stuff on PSN for £60).

Personally I see Microsoft doing it first and more or less straight away, then Sony (due to that their latest interview they said that they don't want an online only option and would rather help the retail industry, remember on the Europe/rest of the world front they know not everyone has reliable internet plus the PSPgo flopped badly) could go either way and Nintendo being last since they are behind as in they just started with HD and DLC that Microsoft/Sony did 6 years ago meaning that the Wii U might be their last or penulitmate non-online main console.

Even though people are saying Steam/cloud/online only gaming is the future, there will be more lost games than ever as evidence of games on PSN/XBLA/Steam being removed in time usually due to licensing. I give a few examples, want to play OutRun Online Arcade, you can't since the game got removed on XBLA/PSN even though it was just a cutdown HD port of OutRun 2006 so that game is still sort of playable (not to 720p or online gameplay though) if you get OutRun 2006. GTI Club is worse due to that it was removed fairly early on, the only options are to either pirate it (but my console is too new to pirate), find the very rare UK Wii version that I could not find at all, to import the US PSP version and hope it doesn't have region locking or spend lots of money on an arcade cabinet of the game. Even more worse is Bionic Commando Rearmed 2, Capcom decided to have always online DRM in the game, after 2016 when the online servers get switched off you can't even play the game anymore making it lost rather like Sim City will be in 2 years time.

Let me name some more games that have been removed that people won't be able to play in the future: TMNT: Turtles in Time Reshelled, Sega Rally Online Arcade, Yaris, the PC version of GTA: Vice City, all original Wiiware games (stuff like Castlevania: Rebirth, Contra Rebirth) unless Nintendo ports them to the Wii U virtual console that I doubt, Daytona USA in the near future (when Sega will lose the rights to the name), any game that have licensing and any online free to play game or online only games. Also if Steam goes bust, then virtually all downloadable games on that service will become unplayable. Even though piracy is bad and is bad for both publishers and developers, sometimes it is also good since they preserve the game for future generations a point many people forget if you can't find the game anymore and if the developers lose the source code/files (it has happened) and want to re-release the game. There is a higher chance in 20 years time that you would be able to play an obscure Mah-jong game from the 1990s than it is to play any game made from now.

As for collecting well... The price of things will eventually get to the point where it becomes too expensive to get anything at a decent price since there will be more demand and less supply. It also worries that some cartridges/discs/tapes will stop working over time and even then a game could be accidentally destroyed making it worse. E.g. Paper Mario on the N64 last time I checked on eBay a few years ago was £60 the same price as retail when it came out and people were bidding on it. It is the reason why I don't have many N64 games, it was expensive and hard to find then, it is expensive now unless you find a miracle [oh and forget boxed N64 games too] and emulation is out of the league since N64 emulation is lousey at best (anything PS1 or lower are more decent emulation wise). Even the less demand that are Sega consoles will get worse in the future (from gathering it does seem that the Master System/Game Gear collectors are smaller than the Mega Drive/Saturn/Dreamcast collectors that itself are smaller than Nintendo/Atari and probably equal to the PC Engine). Oh and to top off things, the only games that will be left after all the known copies of a game are bought are sports games nobody wants. Like everytime I look at older games, all I seem to see are old PS2/PS1 if you are lucky soccer (or football where I come from) games or games that I already got back in the day or really bad licensed games that I would never play.

Sorry it is long...

Oh I looked into US broadband penetration percentage and only about 27.2%? (well probably more since the survey was done since it was done in 2010) Well that's lower than I thought since much of the Internet is pretty much American... By comparison Netherlands, Denmark and Switzerland are 37%, Norway is 35%, Luxembourg is 33%, Germany, Sweden, Belgium and France are 31%, UK is 30% (much more now thanks to two certain sites [coughFacebookcoughTwittercough]). Spain, Finland and Italy are lower though. Yeah, I can see Europe going more into digital in that case but reliablity is a different factor.

Although I'm staunchly against a download-only future for video games, I've completely embraced it with music.  I used to enjoy physical CDs, but having access to thousands of songs without having to swap CDs is amazing.  Maybe I'll come around to a download only future for video games sometime seeing as how my physical collection is diminishing, but who knows.

Sorry, I should have cited sources on this one.

For my statistical info on broadband penetration. (http://www.oecd.org/sti/broadband/oecdbroadbandportal.htm)  The data is not current (June 2012), but it shouldn't have changed much. The relevant data is in xls (sorry), but with fixed broadband you are correct.  The twist that is not taken into account in the data you accessed is wireless broadband, which is hovering around 77%, exceptionally high even for a country that does not have the more advanced mobile technology of say, Japan (who is also the only country that ranks higher than the United States).  If you look around more on Google you'll find inumerable other sources for this subject, many of them showing statistics that vary between 70% and 90%, but never below.  I simply chose the most reputable I could find in the shortest amount of time.


Here here!  I haven't bought an audio CD in years due to this fact.
Although I'm staunchly against a download-only future for video games, I've completely embraced it with music.  I used to enjoy physical CDs, but having access to thousands of songs without having to swap CDs is amazing.  Maybe I'll come around to a download only future for video games sometime seeing as how my physical collection is diminishing, but who knows.
[/quote]

Here here!  When I worked for Ford it became a massive hassle having to switch CDs nine or ten times a night, so I went the digital route and never looked back.  I'll buy a CD every now and then, but this is usually for music that is stuck in limbo.  Then it's FLAC city for me, baby!  Loseless audio FTW!  Now all my CDs are safely tucked away into a crate in my basement.  Ironically the Alice Cooper records aren't, though...

Here's a question I've always thought about.  Will our cartridges and CDs cease to work anytime soon?  I mean, isn't there only so much cleaning one can do?

Slakur has a whole bunch of posts devoted to optical discs.  The cartridges...  I wouldn't worry too much, assuming that you keep them in an environment that is not overly humid and free of static electricity (and don't clean with files or with corrosive chemicals).  A physicist would likely talk to you about the slow and steady march of entropy and the dangers of oxygen, but I am not so I won't.  

You've spoken like a true scholar.  I'm about to seek said posts of Slackur now.  I remember reading an article claiming an average life of a CD to be twenty years or so.

*whistles nonchalantly*
http://www.rfgeneration.com/blogs/slackur/An-important-note-to-Video-Game-Sellers-and-Buyers-1337.php

Cartridges will work long after CD based systems will. The CD's might be fine but the drives running them with all the moving parts will be dead.

i'm glad i'm not big on collecting disc based systems. they're generally just a riskier investment. i do have quite a few but because i'm not trying for a complete set on those systems, i don't have many that i've spent large sums of money on, besides ones i bought new.

i wonder with this sort of problem if it's gotten any better over the years? has the manufacturing process improved? is it limited to CDs, or is it just as common on DVDs? what about blu-rays, which are advertised as being more resilient in general?

If anything I think collecting has become more widespread in recent years. With these older games released on XBL/PSN people seek out more. Even in my town which is a desert for gamers new shops have popped up. Also with newer games going crazy with Collectors Editions it just entices it more. It seems more to me collecting while always be a niche market it becoming more popular. I may buy digital games sometimes but does not slow me down from a boxed copy in my hands